D&D 5E Rogues are Awesome. Is it the Tasha's Effect?

[Maxperson]

If you are visible there certainly is because you are not "unseen", and if you are not unseen you are not hidden RAW and RAI. Also the line of sight rules in the DMG would limit "looking out" from most areas that provide cover to hide in.

You don't have to be for purposes of Rogue sneak attack, though. As long as you were hiding as you pop out to attack, you still get advantage on your attack.

 

[Maxperson]

You can't be hidden if you are clearly seen, It can take as little as 13 milliseconds to register an image. It's up to the DM to decide if you're distracted enough for it to register.

Registering an image in the brain and reaction times are two vastly different things. Go ahead and register the image of my rogues face. Then the image of the arrow. Then no more images

 

[Oofta]

Registering an image in the brain and reaction times are two vastly different things. Go ahead and register the image of my rogues face. Then the image of the arrow. Then no more images

PHB is quite clear "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly"

Unlike previous editions, there is no hidden "condition"; you are actively hiding or you are not. Like Yoda would say "Do or do not, there is no try". Clearly seen you are or clearly seen you are not.

As a DM I'll still allow it once most of the time, just not from the same place repeatedly. As always, that just how I rule.

 

[Mistwell]

At what time does he say this? I listened to the entire thing and did not hear this.

I heard him repeatedly say you must fire from the place where you are hidden. What I capitalized above were exact word for word quotes for the audio you posted.

40:30 "Whereas ranged attackers in particular can often gain the benefit of being hidden when they make their attack because they can make the attack from the place where they are hiding out. You know they’re in the heavy foliage, they’re up in the tree tops, they’re up on the roof of a building, and so that split second where they emerge just to make the attack they get that benefit. Now a melee attacker can similarly get the benefit if, let’s say, their target is standing right at the corner that they’re hiding behind. And so essentially if the melee attacker doesn’t have to move anywhere to make the attack. If they can make the attack from the place where they’re hiding, they get the benefit. That’s sort of to really drill into the heart of the rule, if you are hidden and you can make the attack from the place where you are hidden, whether it’s a melee attack or a ranged attack, you get the benefit but the moment that you hit or miss you’re no longer hidden."

 

[Maxperson]

PHB is quite clear "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly"

Right. Can't attempt to hide. I'm not talking about that.

As a DM I'll still allow it once most of the time, just not from the same place repeatedly. As always, that just how I rule.

I wouldn't allow that, either. The rogue would get it the first time he popped out from behind that wall. After that, the target knows where the rogue is, even if out of sight. In my mind, out of sight, but known does not equal hidden. You don't know where something hidden is.

 

[auburn2]

40:30 "Whereas ranged attackers in particular can often gain the benefit of being hidden when they make their attack because they can make the attack from the place where they are hiding out. You know they’re in the heavy foliage, they’re up in the tree tops, they’re up on the roof of a building, and so that split second where they emerge just to make the attack they get that benefit. Now a melee attacker can similarly get the benefit if, let’s say, their target is standing right at the corner that they’re hiding behind. And so essentially if the melee attacker doesn’t have to move anywhere to make the attack. If they can make the attack from the place where they’re hiding, they get the benefit. That’s sort of to really drill into the heart of the rule, if you are hidden and you can make the attack from the place where you are hidden, whether it’s a melee attack or a ranged attack, you get the benefit but the moment that you hit or miss you’re no longer hidden."

I don't think hde is saying you come out from behind something. The examples he gives are all examples where he is still hidden behind whatever he is hiding in/behind (foliage, tree tops, roof). It is not going out from behind a wall or a boulder and he says that in the end of this paragraph you quoted: "really drill into the heart of the rule, if you are hidden and you can make the attack from the place where you are hidden"

He talks about this for like 10 minutes and is consistent through the whole thing, you nmust attack from where you are hidden, no coming out and attaclking. He says the same in the quote from sage advice.

 

[billd91]

I don't think hde is saying you come out from behind something. The examples he gives are all examples where he is still hidden behind whatever he is hiding in/behind (foliage, tree tops, roof). It is not going out from behind a wall or a boulder and he says that in the end of this paragraph you quoted: "really drill into the heart of the rule, if you are hidden and you can make the attack from the place where you are hidden"

What's the difference between popping up from hiding on a roof to take a shot and hiding behind a wall/boulder?

 

[auburn2]

You don't have to be for purposes of Rogue sneak attack, though. As long as you were hiding as you pop out to attack, you still get advantage on your attack.

Going strictly by RAW, being hidden is not what gives you advantage, being "unseen" is what gives you advantage. When you "pop out" you are not "unseen".

Now being hidden by definition is being "unseen and unheard" so logically someone hidden RAW should always get the benefit.

The thing is you have come up with an alternative definition of "hidden" where someone can be hidden without being "unseen". That is why you are struggling with the concept.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think hde is saying you come out from behind something. The examples he gives are all examples where he is still hidden behind whatever he is hiding in/behind (foliage, tree tops, roof). It is not going out from behind a wall or a boulder and he says that in the end of this paragraph you quoted: "really drill into the heart of the rule, if you are hidden and you can make the attack from the place where you are hidden"

He talks about this for like 10 minutes and is consistent through the whole thing, you nmust attack from where you are hidden, no coming out and attaclking. He says the same in the quote from sage advice.

Unless you are invisible or some other magical camouflage, if you can see them, they can see you. I don't care if it's because you're in heave foliage, on a roof, or in a tree, some part of you will be visible if you can see them.

 

[auburn2]

What's the difference between popping up from hiding on a roof to take a shot and hiding behind a wall/boulder?

If you can shoot from behind the wall you absolutely can do it with advantage (assuming you can see the enemy from behind the wall/boulder). Let's say you are hiding behind a wall wearing a ring of x-ray vision and you toss your dagger in an arcing throw over the wall. Or if you are behind a wall with a 1-way mirror you can do the same thing. I might also allow you to get advantage if your familiar is on top of the wall and you are looking through his eyes (although the last one would be conditional).

Or one that has actually happened a lot in my games - you are behind a minor illusion of a wall that you see through because you cast it and you know it is an illusion but the enemy doesn't.

Those shots all have advantage (and therefore SA) whether you are hidden or not, the difference is if you are not hidden the enemy knows where you are behind the wall and can attack you back in the same fashion (with disadvantage).