D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Umbran]

If you're from the hoods of Baltimore lecture away. If you came from a middle class background and went to university thanks to mommy and daddy stfu basically.

Would be interesting to see the backgrounds of a lot of posters here lol. Wonder how many schools had lockers removed.

So, privilege isn't digital - on or off, you have all of it or you have none of it. Having some privilege doesn't mean everything was easy, or that you didn't have to work.

 

[CleverNickName]

A preview of the first five minutes:

Nick introduces the topic: A Stanford University Professor (Antone Garcia) argued that D&D has racist undertones. He reads the title of the paper, "How Technology and Gaming Shape Youth Learning, Literacy Practices, and Civic Identities." Both fellows laugh about the title, implying it "doesn't sound very fun."

Nick is careful to point out that the paper is a study of D&D fans, not D&D players. The professor heard from fans that the game is racist. Nick asks, "Is the game racist? or are you racist for playing it?"

Without a segue, Tieflings are brought up as a discussion point. Nick asks, "What is a tiefling?" and the other speaker informs him that a tiefling is a human character with an infernal heritage. To that, Nick asks "So is the article implying that the infernal regions (of D&D) are Chicago, Detroit, or anything like that? Like, I don't ever remember anything like that. Like when you're writing the Plane of Hell or the City of Brass or wherever, that it's supposed to look exactly like Detroit."

A few seconds later, he changes the topic without segue again. "Maybe here's the dividing line," Nick says. "Old-school D&D isn't racist, maybe this new-school D&D is racist."

This concludes my preview of the first five minutes.

 

[Sacrosanct]

If you lecture people on white privilege it's just gonna make them angry and is entirely counter productive.

It's also not that applicable to everyone. Eg crossword gre up in essentially a monoculture small townonthe wrong side of the tracks.

Getting lectured on my privilege is funny espicially since it usually comes from middle class or better type backgrounds.

It was violent as well body still has scars from punches (teeth through lip), cuts with a chisel circa 1992 and stab marks from pencils.

It was legal for teachers to hit you with the strap and cane. They stripped all the lockers out at school as they got used as torture devices. Head meet limestone wall happened, one got head meet concrete wall skull broken.

Teachers weren't safe either saw them get assaulted as well.

If you're from the hoods of Baltimore lecture away. If you came from a middle class background and went to university thanks to mommy and daddy stfu basically.

Would be interesting to see the backgrounds of a lot of posters here lol. Wonder how many schools had lockers removed.

Thankfully the full on crazies added togather add up to around 10% total of the population.

None of those things mean you don't have white privilege. I had all that too, on top of living way below the poverty line. You're making the most common mistake, that being, thinking because you had things hard, that means you don't have privilege. That's not what it is at all. I've actually given lectures on this topic many times (being a white cis male myself, who grew up very hard).

It's things like including but not limited to:

• never being told you're a credit to your race/gender whenever you do something good
• opening a newspaper or turning on the TV and being assured there is someone who looks like you showing up immediately.
• having a place of worship in just about every town in the US near you (if applicable)
• never having cops follow you every time you go into a store. and I mean EVERY time, not "well, that happened to me once too!"
• not being pulled over by cops every week based solely on your race
• having everyone speak your language where you live
• walking into a store, church, school, sports event, etc and having the majority of the people look like you
• not having people actively try to create legislation to make your private sex live illegal
• not having people actively try to create legislation to make it legal to fire your just because of who you're attracted to.

etc etc. the list is pretty extensive.

 

[Zardnaar]

So, privilege isn't digital - on or off, you have all of it or you have none of it. Having some privilege doesn't mean everything was easy, or that you didn't have to work.

I frame it in economic terms. Probably because I read a lot if economic history. It's the most important thing IMHO.

That's because if the economy is falling apart that drives extremism Russia 1917, Germany 1933 hel Rome centuries ago.

That's the fundamental problem right there.

Such things are broadly popular in USA apparently but it gets caught up in the culture war. Might be a bit different here as I said the Paladins of those views combined add up to around 10%.

That's the fundamental problem right there IMHO. That's the solution as well.

 

[CleverNickName]

@Sacrosanct I recently read a post on Twitter that stuck with me. Someone wrote, "You didn't make good choices. You had good choices."

I think that's a great way to frame the conversation of a person's privilege.

 

[Zardnaar]

None of those things mean you don't have white privilege. I had all that too, on top of living way below the poverty line. You're making the most common mistake, that being, thinking because you had things hard, that means you don't have privilege. That's not what it is at all. I've actually given lectures on this topic many times (being a white cis male myself, who grew up very hard).

It's things like including but not limited to:

• never being told you're a credit to your race/gender whenever you do something good
• opening a newspaper or turning on the TV and being assured there is someone who looks like you showing up immediately.
• having a place of worship in just about every town in the US near you (if applicable)
• never having cops follow you every time you go into a store. and I mean EVERY time, not "well, that happened to me once too!"
• not being pulled over by cops every week based solely on your race
• having everyone speak your language where you live
• walking into a store, church, school, sports event, etc and having the majority of the people look like you
• not having people actively try to create legislation to make your private sex live illegal
• not having people actively try to create legislation to make it legal to fire your just because of who you're attracted to.

etc etc. the list is pretty extensive.

Not arguing with that but how do you fix that and at what price?

Lecturing a d preaching fundamentally doesn't work (see Jehovah's Witnesses etc knocking on your door).

You also need power once again how do you get that? If you're pissing people off and making them angry they're not going to help.

My privilege such as it was is national. Free healthcare, education, cheap university but it's universal so everyone gets it.

Otherwise see previous post about economics.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Not arguing with that but how do you fix that and at what price?

Lecturing a d preaching fundamentally doesn't work (see Jehovah's Witnesses etc knocking on your door).

You also need power once again how do you get that? If you're pissing people off and making them angry they're not going to help.

Otherwise see previous post about economics.

If someone happens to point out and show you how yes, you do have some level of privilege and that pisses you off? Well, that speaks more to you than them. You seem pretty upset about class/wealth privilege, and so you should. As someone who grew up very poor (and had to join the military to get out of that rut), I feel you. I really do. Now take those feelings about how you weren't treated as fairly as that wealthy kid was, how they got out trouble all the time, never had to work for anything, etc, and apply to other groups of people who not only have wealth disadvantages, but also race/gender disadvantages, and understand why they are pissed off too. Just like you, except it's not just wealth that's holding them down, but how they are treated in ways you or I never have to worry about.

Honestly, after seeing events from the past few years, it's a wonder why women and POC haven't burned this country to the ground yet. Lord knows if white men had to deal with the stuff they deal with, we'd be starting wars post haste. I'd give examples, but that would break the no politics rule, but I'm sure you can see clear examples recently of one group being treated much differently than minorities who actually did much less. It's sort of been all over the news over the past year

 

[Zardnaar]

If someone happens to point out and show you how yes, you do have some level of privilege and that pisses you off? Well, that speaks more to you than them. You seem pretty upset about class/wealth privilege, and so you should. As someone who grew up very poor (and had to join the military to get out of that rut), I feel you. I really do. Now take those feelings about how you weren't treated as fairly as that wealthy kid was, how they got out trouble all the time, never had to work for anything, etc, and apply to other groups of people who not only have wealth disadvantages, but also race/gender disadvantages, and understand why they are pissed off too. Just like you, except it's not just wealth that's holding them down, but how they are treated in ways you or I never have to worry about.

Not really pissed off got over it around 20 years ago. How I feel is mostly irrelevant anyway.

It's about money and power always has been always will be. Hasn't changed since Rome.

I look it as a strategy game. Here's the rules how do I win. It doesn't matter if the rules are unfair that's life. To change the rules you have to win first.

Most people haven't figured that out and would rather complain about the rules a good chunk never read them.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I frame it in economic terms. Probably because I read a lot if economic history. It's the most important thing IMHO.

That's because if the economy is falling apart that drives extremism Russia 1917, Germany 1933 hel Rome centuries ago.

That's the fundamental problem right there.

Such things are broadly popular in USA apparently but it gets caught up in the culture war. Might be a bit different here as I said the Paladins of those views combined add up to around 10%.

That's the fundamental problem right there IMHO. That's the solution as well.

fixing the economy softens those problems not cures them

 

[Remathilis]

The article's view:

"It’s a game that was dominated by white dudes for decades and, because of that, it’s got some baggage. Some of its concepts—evil races, descriptions of orcs and half-orcs that mirror racist stereotypes, and the concept of racial disadvantages—don’t make sense anymore in a modern context. The game's publisher, Wizards of the Coast (WotC), knows that and is trying to move Dungeons & Dragons into the future. But many of its efforts seem half-hearted, and a lot of the work of making Dungeons & Dragons more inclusive has fallen to its fans."

This to me is a tealeaf reading moment.

Wizards is in a bit of a bind. After being stung by the backlash from the radical departures in mechanics and lore of 4e, WotC opted to make a totally safe and nostalgic version of D&D in 5e. And it was very successful, but with success brings increased scrutiny. WotC wants to invoke the rosy nostalgia of Keep on the Borderlands, but the climate is radically shifting away from the tropes that style invokes. Simply put, WotC wanted to create a timeless version of D&D where orcs can be people or orcs can be monsters, but the latter is rapidly falling out of favor. WotC is now stuck between attempting to address the concerns of their audience and gutting the golden goose again during one of the largest points of popularity the brand has seen. They've tried to have it both ways, which has resulted in these "half-measures" that have seemed to placate nobody.

WotC could take bold action: a complete rethink on race/lineage mechanics, a new system to address cultural elements, changing ability scores to be less ableist, ditching alignment, removing or renaming classes and elements which could be seen as insensitive, a wholesale reinvention of what a "monster" is, etc. All culminating in a new edition in the coming few years. Of course, such radical shifts to the paradigm could reinvoke the 4e "this ain't my D&D" problem we just came back from. Fix too little and you'll be called out for failing to address the problem, fix too much and you'll lose the fans that supported you.

I don't envy this position. One person's "good enough" is another person's "that doesn't address the issue". That said, I wager there will be a larger revision to the game sooner rather than later now, because the current climate is going to demand WotC treat these concerns with a little more finesse than what they've done so far. The question will be how far that revision will go.