D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Ruin Explorer]

The implication, of course, being that while WE may not be racists/bigots our IDEAS certainly are helping the racists/bigots win.

I wasn't actually intending to generalize that broadly, though that is an interesting perspective.

My thought was more like racism people don't recognise as racism can still spread racist ideology/tropes/stereotypes. I mean, let's be real, D&D is not a huge, giant offender here, but historically it has had some seriously problematic elements, which until recently, never really got addressed. 4E clearly saw a lot of them, and backed away from them or averted them, but it did so almost entirely silently (and arguably in a somewhat dubious way). 5E was the first edition to start really confronting them, though initially it actually did worse than 5E in that it resurrected some bad ones.

Neither 4E nor 5E (nor really 3E or even most of 2E) has been terribly keen on "genocide the humanoids!" as a plot point/call-to-action at least, so it's been like 25+ years since that was really endorsed by much (some OSR stuff did lean into it of course, but not much).

 

[Zardnaar]

Now imagine instead of stereotypical Cowboy you reproduces the stereotypes of Native Americans from old movies. Would someone of Native American descent feel comfortable at your table?

Heh what I do is generally don't use funny voices at least for comic relief.

I also don't tend to vase my cultures on RL ones either fantasy (Elves are like Melinbonians) or extinct ones (Not Free, Not Egypt etc).

Seems common sense to me ymmv.

 

[Umbran]

The problem has been found.

Mod Note:

You want to call people who disagree with you brainwashed Nazis? Do it on some other site. You're done in this thread.

 

[HJFudge]

Which means they're crude and in poor taste. It's still hard to see a realistic chain of this causing real harm today to a real person.

Someone plays Curse of Strahd and is exposed to stereotypical depictions or Romani. Then what? How does this change their behaviour in real life? How does that behaviour cause harm to an actual person?

It seems to me that changing Vistani is just a way for the publishers to demonstrate to their customers that they're the sort of people who disapprove of crude stereotypes. Which is fine, and a perfectly understandable business decision. It's like a car dealership flying the national flag.

And this is the SAME EXACT arguments they made in the 80's.

That players would sit down at a table and use magical terms and cast spells then get UP from that table and suddenly begin trying to cast magical spells. No one is going to try to cast Dominate Person on their mom or dad to buy them more D&D stuff. The argument is flawed, much like the argument that people playing call of duty are going to go shoot up a school is flawed.

Behavior nor belief on real life topics or subjects is not driven by a D&D game unless perhaps you purposefully design it into the game...in which case it becomes propaganda and its a table problem not a game problem.

Now imagine instead of stereotypical Cowboy you reproduces the stereotypes of Native Americans from old movies. Would someone of Native American descent feel comfortable at your table?

I would broach the subject with them beforehand. I would not assume either way. Trying to guess what someone else will think of something based on their ethnicity is...well, it is probably not a good practice to get into!

Oh real life example! I actually ran a cold-war era spy vs spy game as a one off, when I was experimenting with different settings and such. Since I had a russian friend I correspended with via email at the time, I asked him to write the lines since he was into the cold war stuff. He made it way more authentic than I could've!

 

[BookTenTiger]

And this is the SAME EXACT arguments they made in the 80's.

That players would sit down at a table and use magical terms and cast spells then get UP from that table and suddenly begin trying to cast magical spells. No one is going to try to cast Dominate Person on their mom or dad to buy them more D&D stuff. The argument is flawed, much like the argument that people playing call of duty are going to go shoot up a school is flawed.

Behavior nor belief on real life topics or subjects is not driven by a D&D game unless perhaps you purposefully design it into the game...in which case it becomes propaganda and its a table problem not a game problem.



I would broach the subject with them beforehand. I would not assume either way. Trying to guess what someone else will think of something based on their ethnicity is...well, it is probably not a good practice to get into!

Oh real life example! I actually ran a cold-war era spy vs spy game as a one off, when I was experimenting with different settings and such. Since I had a russian friend I correspended with via email at the time, I asked him to write the lines since he was into the cold war stuff. He made it way more authentic than I could've!

And so, to take that onto a systemic level, WotC should work with a diverse staff to make sure that they are not using harmful stereotypes in their products.

 

[Haffrung]

Tropes are not the same thing as negative stereotyping.

I don't think the distinction is at all clear-cut.

An explorer in a primitive land is captured by natives who take him to a volcano to be sacrificed. Trope or stereotyping?

The sorceress turned her back on humankind after she was abandoned at the altar by the king's son. Trope or stereotyping?

One culture in a war are urbanized, decadent, and ruthless. The other are rural, virtuous, and courageous. Trope or stereotyping?

The villain's greed is represented by depicting her/him as fat and always eating in front of others. Trope or stereotyping?

The slacker best friend of the protagonist is a slob, never has a girlfriend, and can't hold down a job. Trope or stereotyping?

 

[HJFudge]

And so, to take that onto a systemic level, WotC should work with a diverse staff to make sure that they are not using harmful stereotypes in their products.

I think they should hire a diverse staff too. Maybe not for the exact same reason. But on this I agree whole heartedly!

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:

Some joker just thought it was a good idea to be a real jerk in this thread. They were given a ticket out of the discussion.

Next person who cannot keep this discussion in perspective and respectful can expect a vacation from the site, without warning. That nonsense will not be tolerated further. If you can't help yourself, walk away.

 

[MGibster]

And so, to take that onto a systemic level, WotC should work with a diverse staff to make sure that they are not using harmful stereotypes in their products.

And everyone should remember that this is a process rather than something we'll ever settling on definitively.

 

[billd91]

And this is the SAME EXACT arguments they made in the 80's.

That players would sit down at a table and use magical terms and cast spells then get UP from that table and suddenly begin trying to cast magical spells. No one is going to try to cast Dominate Person on their mom or dad to buy them more D&D stuff. The argument is flawed, much like the argument that people playing call of duty are going to go shoot up a school is flawed.

Behavior nor belief on real life topics or subjects is not driven by a D&D game unless perhaps you purposefully design it into the game...in which case it becomes propaganda and its a table problem not a game problem.

It's probably NOT going to change their behavior, but why perpetuate a negative stereotype in the first place? The more ethical path is to improve by not doing so. The more ethical path is to remove the barriers to making the game as inclusive of players of all types and identities as possible rather than leave in elements that will make those players feel excluded.
Plus, this is about how real people are affected by how the game depicts them or their cultures through negative stereotypes so the comparison with the farcical belief that people would actually casting utterly fictitious spells is pretty insulting. You make it clear that you don't get it and you don't really care to get it.