D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[GreyLord]

Well, this is the first I’ve ever heard of anyone suggesting on any level that demons being evil is racist, so...that’s a weird way to start my day.

No, demons being evil is not comparable to a race of mortal people being evil. They are inherently different cases.

Tieflings??

PS: I know, I know, but Evil parents are Evil parents in D&D nonetheless...right?

And the entire Orc issue can be traced back to Half-Orcs being a playable race...

 

[Oofta]

This is exactly the problem with engaging with that asinine, backward, distraction of an argument about demons. It does not matter, but it is becoming what the thread is about anyway, purely via repetition.

It’s pure BS whataboutist nonsense.

Every non-human creature/race/species we discuss in D&D is a fictional construct. It's not whataboutism. You're saying some creatures are "human" because they're "close enough" to human. Others are not "human" because they aren't "close enough".

You're just making an artificial line. Much like at one time people from eastern Europe were not considered "white", or how Irish immigrants were discriminated against. Then the line changed and Irish and Slavs were considered "white" and "good".

I don't have a problem with evil orcs or evil fiends in my campaigns. But I think any line we draw between them is completely arbitrary and just as valid a topic as any discussion of racism in D&D. That's why I continue to repeat that we should just make it clearer that alignment is just a default, do what makes sense for your campaign.

 

[MGibster]

This isn't my first time doing this. Believe me, I am closer to where you are than not, but I'm seeing the writing on the wall. Alignment is a dying concept and it's going to die to the push for inclusiveness. It's collateral damage, but gone just the same.

Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if alignment was relegated to option rules in DMG in the next edition of the game. Furthermore, most of my players these days don't really want to be good guys. They don't want to be mustache twirling villains but they prefer Mal from Firefly to Dudley Doright.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Tieflings??

Tieflings aren’t demons. In modern D&D they aren’t even descendants of fiends. They’re literally people who got marked by deals with devils. Which has elements of witch trial type thinking that people largely use to subvert and “own” and tieflings have thus become important to a lot of pagan and queer D&D players.

 

[Justice and Rule]

So it's okay to label creatures as evil because they're different enough from you? Who gets to decide what different enough is? Is a person that has different color skin enough?

I mean, I think trying to "Whatabout Demons" here miss that Demons and Devils don't functionally exist in the same plane and with the same rules. Orcs, Gnolls, Goblins... they have societies that feel recognizable and exist as living beings. Things like angels and devils, at a certain level, are really closer to Gods than anything else. Like, perhaps it's just me, but an extraplanar entity that might not be made up of matter in the same way I am and exists on a timescale I can't conceive is just less recognizable to me; they are outsiders and inhuman not in a way someone might use use in real life, but in a more literal and metaphysical sense. Or to be more blunt, it's not an outsider because it's being ostracized, it's an outsider because I can only hit it with a +1 weapon or greater.

Tieflings??

But Tieflings aren't the demons and devils. Sins of the father and all that, right? I feel like that's also part of their appeal.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Every non-human creature/race/species we discuss in D&D is a fictional construct. It's not whataboutism. You're saying some creatures are "human" because they're "close enough" enough to human. Others are not "human" because they aren't "close enough".

You're just making an artificial line. Much like at one time people from eastern Europe were not considered "white", or how Irish immigrants were discriminated against. Then the line changed and Irish an Slavs were considered "white" and "good".

I don't have a problem with evil orcs or evil fiends in my campaigns. But I think any line we draw between them is completely arbitrary and just as valid a topic as any discussion of racism in D&D. That's why I continue to repeat that we should just make it clearer that alignment is just a default, do what makes sense for your campaign.

Comparing one to the other is beyond in appropriate. It is immoral. If you won’t stop doing it I guess I’ll have to go back to limiting our ability to interact directly.

 

[Haffrung]

The exact same logic that is used in the real world, is being used on this fictional symbol - that symbol looks like members of your demographic. The portrayal is like those leveled at your own people in the real world.

The notion that Black Americans look and act like orcs is so odious and incredible that the first time I came across it on an RPG forum a couple years ago I thought I’d stumbled onto a Stormfront forum. I’d be astonished if average Black Americans drew that analogy. I expect the few people who do have spent years studying sociology or critical theory and have trained themselves to examine every fragment and thread of culture through the lens of race.

Which can be a useful exercise. But can also lead to making connections based on the flimsiest of assumptions. Maybe the kraken in Clash of the Titans is just a monster, and not a stand-in for international jewry. Maybe the alien mother in aliens is just a monster and not a symbol of the burden of birthing and child-rearing imposed by a patriarchal societies. Maybe orcs and drow are just monsters and not the personification of egregious stereotypes about Black Americans.

 

[Scribe]

That last sentence is less hyperbolic than you think. I have been told (on these very boards) that using STR modifiers for an orc's attack and DEX modifiers for a gnome's attack is not being "inclusive". I have been told that using racial ability modifiers means D&D is inherently prejudiced, to the point where it cannot be fixed.

This went on for pages, in the UA thread that is over 3000 posts long.

Ultimately, should real world cultures be represented without negative stereotypes (if at all)? Yes. Without a doubt. Should harmful stereotypes about real people's be removed from the game? Certainly.

Everyone is going to have where they draw the line in relation to fictional races, and Wizards is never going to make everyone happy.

 

[Oofta]

I mean, I think trying to "Whatabout Demons" here miss that Demons and Devils don't functionally exist in the same plane and with the same rules. Orcs, Gnolls, Goblins... they have societies that feel recognizable and exist as living beings. Things like angels and devils, at a certain level, are really closer to Gods than anything else. Like, perhaps it's just me, but an extraplanar entity that might not be made up of matter in the same way I am and exists on a timescale I can't conceive is just less recognizable to me; they are outsiders and inhuman not in a way someone might use use in real life, but in a more literal and metaphysical sense. Or to be more blunt, it's not an outsider because it's being ostracized, it's an outsider because I can only hit it with a +1 weapon or greater.

Well, orcs all come from Jotunheim in my campaign. Does it matter? It's also just saying, again, that some creatures are human because of where they come from and others are not.

As far as culture for fiends, very little is written about it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We just don't have a lot of details on it because most campaigns don't deal with it much. I'm having to fill in details right now for my current campaign.

 

[TheSword]

Fiends are created from the souls of evil creatures, to further the spread of evil.

Mindflayers torture and dominate slaves to eat the living brains for sustenance.

Succubi take advantage of their alluring appearance to drag souls back to the abyss for consumption.

Hags enchant ( read rape) men to procreate and murder and eat human flesh.

Beholders genetically believe all creatures that don’t look identical to them are abominations deserving of destruction or enslavement.

If it’s uninclusive to have these creature default to evil then I really don’t know what to say.