D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Oofta]

Keep on the Borderlands?

Which was printed what, 40 years ago? Not sure how relevant it is any more.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

They've been fixed. Going forward, orcs are not defaulting to Evil alignments in the Stat block. Races no longer have cultural elements baked in or ability scores predeterminism. Vistani are being modified. The battle is won, everyone can go home now.

See you all in 6 months when the next offensive element is isolated and must be removed.

So, it's really just pessimistic kvetching about how the sky is falling?

 

[Scribe]

Well my recommendation would be to have a section talking about this very issue. How every race and monster as represented is just a default. Maybe have a sidebar for some of the iconic monsters like orcs.

I'm just saying there's a limit to what can be done. It feels like overreach to eliminate alignment entry from some monsters but also contradictory if we don't do it for other intelligent monsters. I've been picking on succubi but I think the same could be said about dragons or any other reasonably intelligent creature.

I honestly find it ridiculous that the discussion on racist elements is about Orcs and Alignment at all.

If we want things like the Vistani cleaned up? Absolutely please do so! That is a texbook case of removing something that simply shouldnt be there.

If there is another race that is a near 1:1 stand in for another real world culture? Clean it up.

I repeat: If there is real world ties to a culture within D&D, make sure its acceptable.

Orcs do not meet that bar for me at all. They simply dont. Alignment? Come on now.

If one is going to argue that Orcs are racist, and Alignment is part of it, then absolutely one must also reconcile any other 'historically evil' race, Tieflings, intelligent Fiends, intelligent Undead, and 'thinking' Constructs, such as Warforged, and even things like Flayers (evil or hungry?!).

I'm not taking the piss here either. I find it as equally absurd to declare orcs as a racist construct, as I do the concept that Succubi are allowed to be assumed as only evil.

Planescape allowed for all the diversity one could want, with Alignments subverted. Chalk up one more for why Planescape should be implemented right now, with Alignments.

 

[Charlaquin]

In fact, we eat sentient creature brains...does that make Humans evil? We raise cattle, sheep, and other animals and some eat the brains of those animals. Does that make them evil?

There’s definitely a strong argument to be made that the way we treat livestock is indeed evil. But, setting that moral quandary aside for a moment, the dividing line between humans eating meat and what mind flayers do is that the animals humans eat have debated sapience, and humans can choose not to do so and still survive. Mind flayers are obligate... err... cerebrovores? They need to eat the brains of sapient beings to survive.

 

[Scribe]

There’s definitely a strong argument to be made that the way we treat livestock is indeed evil. But, setting that moral quandary aside for a moment, the dividing line between humans eating meat and what mind flayers do is that the animals humans eat have debated sapience, and humans can choose not to do so and still survive. Mind flayers are obligate... err... cerebrovores? They need to eat the brains of sapient beings to survive.

So, Flayers indeed confirmed, not Evil, just hungry.

 

[Remathilis]

So, it's really just pessimistic kvetching about how the sky is falling?

Look, I don't know what you want anymore. We can't undo the changes that have been made (even if we wanted to, which not all of us do), and we can't discuss other potential pitfalls that could arise because that's doomsaying and whataboutism. Either WotC's fixes have corrected the issue or there is more work to be done, but it can't be both simultaneously. So which is it?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Look, if having demons and whatever not be always-evil is what it takes to convince people to let go of needing to have always-evil humanoids, I’ll accept that.

Sure. I just get really tired of them being used to make the discussion inherently absurd.

It's a weird mix of whataboutism and egregiously fallacious slippery slope arguments that serves no purpose in this discussion. The line is, "what makes marginalised people feel like the game is asking to touch their hair or expressing surprise at how articulate they are?" It's not complicated.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Well my recommendation would be to have a section talking about this very issue. How every race and monster as represented is just a default. Maybe have a sidebar for some of the iconic monsters like orcs.

Not having Orcs have a penalty to intelligence was a good start. However they do it, I hope they take in solid input and try to use it as an opportunity rather than just a fix.

I'm just saying there's a limit to what can be done. It feels like overreach to eliminate alignment entry from some monsters but also contradictory if we don't do it for other intelligent monsters. I've been picking on succubi but I think the same could be said about dragons or any other reasonably intelligent creature.

I mean, I don't think you really need to eliminate alignment as much as move slightly away from huge racial stereotypes, or at least ones that can draw back on our own cultural history. To me, I'm not worried about a succubus or dragon as much because I don't think people see them as "cultures" or "societies". The succubus can run afoul of issues with bad gender tropes, but I think that doesn't really relate to what we are talking about right now.

I honestly find it ridiculous that the discussion on racist elements is about Orcs and Alignment at all.

If we want things like the Vistani cleaned up? Absolutely please do so! That is a texbook case of removing something that simply shouldnt be there.

If there is another race that is a near 1:1 stand in for another real world culture? Clean it up.

I repeat: If there is real world ties to a culture within D&D, make sure its acceptable.

Orcs do not meet that bar for me at all. They simply dont. Alignment? Come on now.

If one is going to argue that Orcs are racist, and Alignment is part of it, then absolutely one must also reconcile any other 'historically evil' race, Tieflings, intelligent Fiends, intelligent Undead, and 'thinking' Constructs, such as Warforged, and even things like Flayers (evil or hungry?!).

I'm not taking the piss here either. I find it as equally absurd to declare orcs as a racist construct, as I do the concept that Succubi are allowed to be assumed as only evil.

Planescape allowed for all the diversity one could want, with Alignments subverted. Chalk up one more for why Planescape should be implemented right now, with Alignments.

With Orcs, it's largely that they fall into coded language that was used against natives that were colonized. Like, that Volo passage is not good at all. That doesn't mean you can't have Orcs, but that you shouldn't be using that language and those stereotypes as descriptors for them.

 

[Scribe]

With Orcs, it's largely that they fall into coded language that was used against natives that were colonized. Like, that Volo passage is not good at all. That doesn't mean you can't have Orcs, but that you shouldn't be using that language and those stereotypes as descriptors for them.

Absolutely, and some of that should be fixed. No argument there.

I have thoughts on if some of the themes that are an issue (colonialism, genocide, etc) should be things we interact with in the game irrespective of Orcs, but thats a different topic.

 

[Charlaquin]

Come to think of it, I'm having a hard time recalling the last time I had a player charge an orc, goblin, or some other creature without having some reason to do so. I realize my experience is only one anecdote, but when meeting a strange group of orcs unexpectedly they're first reaction typically isn't to attack. It's to see what the other group is going to do. Some of these are old school players. I personally like that better than just attacking the orcs for no reason.

Agreed!

My regulars have a running joke that “if it wears pants, try talking to it first.”