D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Remathilis]

If succubi can bear children with others of their own kind, frankly, why the hell are they fiends?

And again, this has nothing at all to do with racism in D&D .

Because they are born on the planes of evil. So are night hags, for what that's worth.

As to the latter, consider it future-proofing. We have removed alignment from humanoids like orcs and drow already. Is racism in D&D now solved? If not, what else should we be looking at to fix the problem before it becomes a PR nightmare?

 

[Justice and Rule]

D&D has always (and I think will continue) vastly simplify things in order to make things work. If you have a world with 10 types of creatures that are intelligent, you can have a lot of variety for each type of creature.

But D&D? We dozens of races, even hundreds. The presentation we get in any book is going to be limited whether that's a gnome or a goblin. Which, yes, can cause issues.

No, I get that. Everything gets a bit harder. At the same time, I think work can be done on this without requiring an entire book's worth of text. But the first step is recognizing that there are problematic elements here, so that we can start looking at a decent solution.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Because they are born on the planes of evil. So are night hags, for what that's worth.

As to the latter, consider it future-proofing. We have removed alignment from humanoids like orcs and drow already. Is racism in D&D now solved? If not, what else should we be looking at to fix the problem before it becomes a PR nightmare?

“Future-proofing” is both impossible and counterproductive.

There are actual issues now. We can fix them. It doesn’t even require a new edition or anything.

Trying to sanitize the game in a guessing game of what some future generation might object to is a complete waste of time, and likely to backfire.

Remove alignment completely, I don’t care. It won’t make demons part of the discussion about racism in D&D .

 

[Oofta]

No, I get that. Everything gets a bit harder. At the same time, I think work can be done on this without requiring an entire book's worth of text. But the first step is recognizing that there are problematic elements here, so that we can start looking at a decent solution.

Well my recommendation would be to have a section talking about this very issue. How every race and monster as represented is just a default. Maybe have a sidebar for some of the iconic monsters like orcs.

I'm just saying there's a limit to what can be done. It feels like overreach to eliminate alignment entry from some monsters but also contradictory if we don't do it for other intelligent monsters. I've been picking on succubi but I think the same could be said about dragons or any other reasonably intelligent creature.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, I've said it every time these thread start. That any line we draw is completely arbitrary. Either creatures with intelligence close to or exceeding the intelligence of people have at least some free will or they don't.

The odds of a fiend or orc being good may or may not be near zero, that's up to the campaign. That should be reinforced with more than just a sentence or two buried in the intro to thE MM

Look, if having demons and whatever not be always-evil is what it takes to convince people to let go of needing to have always-evil humanoids, I’ll accept that.

 

[MGibster]

In my home setting, I've modeled the big evil empire after Rome and made the patrician class tieflings. Years ago, the patrician class grew tired of their king who insisted they couldn't just run the kingdom without consideration for his subjects. So most of the class made a pact with an entity for power and used their newfound abilities to overthrow the king and take power with their newly formed senate.

Every tiefling in the world can trace their origin to the patrician class of this empire even if they aren't actually members of the class today. Those tieflings who aren't patricians and especially if they live outside the empire, are met by suspicion wherever they go. I kind of like the tiefling as an outsider of some sort.

 

[MGibster]

Look, if having demons and whatever not be always-evil is what it takes to convince people to let go of needing to have always-evil humanoids, I’ll accept that.

Come to think of it, I'm having a hard time recalling the last time I had a player charge an orc, goblin, or some other creature without having some reason to do so. I realize my experience is only one anecdote, but when meeting a strange group of orcs unexpectedly they're first reaction typically isn't to attack. It's to see what the other group is going to do. Some of these are old school players. I personally like that better than just attacking the orcs for no reason.

 

[Charlaquin]

Who butchers orcs just for being orcs? Are there any officially published adventures where PCs are encouraged to attack orcs just for being orcs or are they raiding or otherwise causing problems?

Keep on the Borderlands?

 

[Oofta]

Look, if having demons and whatever not be always-evil is what it takes to convince people to let go of needing to have always-evil humanoids, I’ll accept that.

We already have that. Any monster, any race, can be any alignment. It's just not made clear enough IMHO.

 

[Remathilis]

“Future-proofing” is both impossible and counterproductive.

There are actual issues now. We can fix them. It doesn’t even require a new edition or anything.

Trying to sanitize the game in a guessing game of what some future generation might object to is a complete waste of time, and likely to backfire.

Remove alignment completely, I don’t care. It won’t make demons part of the discussion about racism in D&D .

They've been fixed. Going forward, orcs are not defaulting to Evil alignments in the Stat block. Races no longer have cultural elements baked in or ability scores predeterminism. Vistani are being modified. The battle is won, everyone can go home now.

See you all in 6 months when the next offensive element is isolated and must be removed.