D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[HJFudge]

And look how well it's doing. Online it's competing with PF1.

Reason 5E took off was because of its relative simplicity.

Okay this argument kinda bothers me. What does the lines popularity gotta do with it? Twilight books sold a huge amount, were commercially more successful than a whole ton of other books. This does not mean that Twilight was 'better'.

We can make better arguments to support our case here. This one doesn't pass the test, imho.

 

[Maxperson]

I think WoW orcs are aliens? Like literally from a different planet. I dunno, WoW is not to my taste.

So are D&D orcs in the Forgotten Realms. They arrived from another universe(setting) via a portal.

 

[Zardnaar]

Okay this argument kinda bothers me. What does the lines popularity gotta do with it? Twilight books sold a huge amount, were commercially more successful than a whole ton of other books. This does not mean that Twilight was 'better'.

We can make better arguments to support our case here. This one doesn't pass the test, imho.

Because if it makes its way into 6E and it crashes and burns we're having this arguement again in around 10 years or whatever.

Whatever they do people gotta buy the product.

 

[Maxperson]

They can have different stats than each other that fall within the 3-18 range though.

This completely misses his point and issue.

 

[Maxperson]

Hmm. I may have just found the next monster for my home game. The much feared cowflayer.

View attachment 133285

They used to exist, but then Mad Cow disease wiped them all out.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Are you asking why we do not have multiple 'mono culture' portrayals of Humans where some are better than others at different things?

I'm saying trying to tell what race someone is just based on mannerisms could be difficult given that humans can have a vast variety of attitudes and mannerisms. Being haughty or honorbound aren't just for elves and dwarves, ya know.

You mean the tongue in cheek alternative 'Else World' for Warhammer? Of course I am aware of it. I grew up on GW.

Cool?

Warhammer Orcs and Orks are absolutely savage, 'force of nature' type entities that exist to fight. I'm not sure what your argument is here. They are extremely 'monoculture' would be seen as Chaotic Neutral at best, and honestly are CE by any reasonable measure, and they live to fight, and butcher, for their Gods. They have low level gear, are brutish, and have zero interest in again, anything but fighting.

That's somehow different from 'Savage Orcs of the Forgotten Realms'? How??

I mean, 40K Orks do have different cultures within them (the Clans), while there are different kinds of Orc cultures within Warhammer Orcs (Black Orcs, Savage Orcs, etc). Same with Gobbos.

And yeah, they're completely different in attitude and execution than Forgotten Realms. Orcs in Warhammer are halfway comedic in attitude and action. They're nothing like the bland hordes of the Forgotten Realms, which have no personality.

WoW Orcs are better (now), certainly, but they didnt start that way. Granted, Daemonic influence and all that, like say Gruumsh perhaps on FR Orcs.

By Warcraft 2 they were breaking away from demonic influence. But even then they are better than the MM Orc.

I have not played the default faerun setting in so long I cannot honestly tell you what my players think. Though most of them think the Forgotten Realms is 'dumb'. So I cannot tell you either way. Just how they react to the races I present them. And I struggle to get some of them to do it in any way but 'Im a human, but with powers!'

I'm not huge on the Realms either, so we can agree on that.

But the whole mannerism thing is an interesting idea, though I'm not sure how effective it is. When I played a dragonborn paladin, I could see how he might be seen as largely a human from mannerisms, but at the same time the dragonborn part of him came from his background and personal story.

Total Anecdote: The only people I have personally ever met that really like forgotten realms and the setting are people who are really, really into elves. Like...REALLY into elves.

lol

And look how well it's doing. Online it's competing with PF1.

Reason 5E took off was because of its relative simplicity.

I mean, that's enough to make it the #2 RPG that's still getting support.

And D&D exploded because it had 40+ years of cultural cache and people were ready to get back into RPGs. That's the long and short of it. "Simplicity" doesn't really explain things, and honestly given how much people modify and add things to it, I think people may think it's too simple.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yes, but what folks are saying, is they want a ready made option, without doing the hard thinking about a race that ages quickly, and is above average in strength.

And you can choose to do that. But you should be aware that, when you do it, there's a hell of a lot of baggage that, for some people, may cause some pretty serious negative response. That's literally the whole point of the thread: that having options you don't think much about tends to involve racism, especially if they're antagonists. Because that's literally how real racism has actually worked for thousands of years, and possibly since the dawn of humankind.

 

[Voadam]

https://cdn.wallpapersafari.com/16/26/NpLAgq.jpg

Checks out. Meets the skulls per square inch Warhammer art quota.

 

[Scribe]

I mean, 40K Orks do have different cultures within them (the Clans), while there are different kinds of Orc cultures within Warhammer Orcs (Black Orcs, Savage Orcs, etc). Same with Gobbos.

I dont want to be dismissive here, genuinely how familiar are you with 40K Orks and their clans? Hell, even the fantasy ones. If the issue is 'We need Orcs that believe in different things but still want to rip apart anything not an Orc." I guess we can get there.

And you can choose to do that. But you should be aware that, when you do it, there's a hell of a lot of baggage that, for some people, may cause some pretty serious negative response. That's literally the whole point of the thread: that having options you don't think much about tends to involve racism, especially if they're antagonists. Because that's literally how real racism has actually worked for thousands of years, and possibly since the dawn of humankind.

I disagree. The racism starts and stops at really poor work like in Volo's, at least that I've seen.

Otherwise, GW Orcs are just as bad, because there isnt a culture of Orc or Ork that isnt ready to scrap with anything that crosses their path. Their entire purpose, literally coded into their fungus genes, is to fight stuff.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I dont want to be dismissive here, genuinely how familiar are you with 40K Orks and their clans? Hell, even the fantasy ones. If the issue is 'We need Orcs that believe in different things but still want to rip apart anything not an Orc." I guess we can get there.

Out of hand I could literally name all the clans and their specific gimmicks and list makeup.

But the whole point I was making was that hanging on to the MM version for familiarity doesn't work when most people's concept of what makes an "Orc" is very different. Warhammer Orcs are bloodthirsty, but their attitude and portrayal is completely different. Trying to adhere to a dull and frankly flawed idea for no other reason than "That's how it's been" just doesn't make sense.

I disagree. The racism starts and stops at really poor work like in Volo's, at least that I've seen.

Otherwise, GW Orcs are just as bad, because there isnt a culture of Orc or Ork that isnt ready to scrap with anything that crosses their path. Their entire purpose, literally coded into their fungus genes, is to fight stuff.

Yeah, but that's what kind of makes it work: they were literally genetically engineered to be creatures of war, to the point that they emit an psychic aura that allows their creations to work against all the laws of physics and nature. Plus they occupy the unique spot of comedy relief in grimdark worlds, which makes them incredibly endearing.