D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Ruin Explorer]

I kind of like darkspawn in the World of Magnamund.

Spawn "born" in a vat from dark magic infused with the soul stuff of the god of darkness himself.

They're self aware somewhat but literally can't be anything else at least not without deific intervention or an archmage tweaking them.

Literally spawn of evil.

Yeah and I think D&D is actually kind of missing a type of creature like that, a sort of almost more robotic enemy in a sense. Gibberlings are the closest thing I can think of.

 

[Wishbone]

Yeah and I think D&D is actually kind of missing a type of creature like that, a sort of almost more robotic enemy in a sense. Gibberlings are the closest thing I can think of.

That's generally the argument some people have made for fiends like demons, devils, and yugoloths.

 

[Oofta]

That's generally the argument some people have made for fiends like demons, devils, and yugoloths.

But the thing that never gets answered is why is it okay for demons, devils, gibberlings and so on but not orcs.

Other than "they're more different than humans than orcs".

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That's generally the argument some people have made for fiends like demons, devils, and yugoloths.

I agree that that argument has been made, but the problem is D&D doesn't usually treat them that, way, it treats them as people, at least most of them.

I think what worked in Lone Wolf (the Magnakai etc.) was that the enemy like this was only semi-sapient, so it really couldn't be a person.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But the thing that never gets answered is why is it okay for demons, devils, gibberlings and so on but not orcs.

Other than "they're more different than humans than orcs".

Gibberlings aren't sapient.

Demons etc. are supernatural entities designed solely for the purpose of carrying out evil, not just... people.

I get that, to you, orcs aren't people, but unfortunately since at least the early 1980s, D&D's official writers have frequently treated them as if they were. So they are and have been for a long time.

It's been answered a lot of times man.

 

[Zardnaar]

That's generally the argument some people have made for fiends like demons, devils, and yugoloths.

Sci fi gets around it via genetic engineering. Daleks for example, Warhammer Orks iirc.

It's literally in their dna to act that way like a tiger or whatever. They don't have human emotions or even the full range.

May not be 100% impossible but may as well be.

 

[Deset Gled]

The fact that orcs are imaginary really isn't relevant. All characters in fiction are imaginary! If that defense held water, then you could always do whatever you wanted with any fictional representations without reproach, but that is empirically not the case. Symbols matter to real humans. You'd have to go much further, and establish that there's a clear line of "imaginary enough", that magically makes it okay. Good luck with that.

There's always a line that's "imaginary enough". People would rightly be offended if you made separate separate stats for chromatically black people, red people , and white people and tried to claim they were imaginary races. But no one complains about the depiction of chromatically black, red, and white dragons. They're "imaginary enough" that we don't draw the parallels to real world people. The challenge is always to be sure you're always far enough over the line. But it doesn't do anyone any good to pretend that the line doesn't exist. If we're being honest, we also need to admit that the line moves with cultural standards.

Clearly, orcs have been on the wrong side of the line in the past, but that doesn't mean they have to be there in the future. I believe that if kobolds can mutate from goblins to dog people to dragons, orcs can mutate to a form that acceptably non-racist. Unless orcs are a permanently tainted symbol (like, for example, how the swastika is still tainted by Nazis), but I don't really see that being the case.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Sci fi gets around it via genetic engineering. Daleks for example, Warhammer Orks iirc.

It's literally in their dna to act that way like a tiger or whatever. They don't have human emotions or even the full range.

May not be 100% impossible but may as well be.

Yeah and the reason we can't do that for D&D Orcs is it's already been established to not be the case for them.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

That's generally the argument some people have made for fiends like demons, devils, and yugoloths.

They aren't depicted anymore "remote" from people than orcs, though. They seem to be sentient, self-aware and intelligent, with individual goals and can be reasoned with (in the case of yugoloth, bribed). Canonically, the plot of Descent to Avernus shows that "always XYZ" isn't really always... I'd say the always evil descriptor seems more bad propagand from their opponents than a reality... What makes them easier to kill wholesale is that there are no children demons and you don't really kill them outside of their native plane.

 

[Oofta]

Gibberlings aren't sapient.

Demons etc. are supernatural entities designed solely for the purpose of carrying out evil, not just... people.

It's been answered a lot of times man.

Right. They look different, act different. They are different enough from us that it's okay. Just like people with a different religion, skin color, language and custom are different enough from us that we can no longer consider them human.

Or...orcs are not humans. They are a race created by a vengeful god. They can be anything we want them to be and in different campaigns they can be nearly human.