D&D 5E Dealing with optimizers at the table

[Ruin Explorer]

Without knowing more about the game or how exactly these supposed "jerks" are disrupting it with their optimized characters, it's a bit difficult to provide any useful advice, given that the standard advice of "talking to them" was rejected out of hand.

Yup this really renders the problem non-solvable. We've seen this before - if someone won't set out either the parameters of their actual problem, nor even the parameters of their desired resolution/outcome, then it's impossible to give actually-useful advice.

Here’s something to try that might work in the given parameters. Tell the whole group that because of the issues there have been with party composition, you are going to have to individually approve each character as well as level up decisions.

This is a reasonable solution. Whilst I wouldn't play in a 5E D&D game that did that to that formal degree because I'd be concerned about the DM's mindset (I would in more break-able system like GURPS though), I think some people would, and it's likely most/all of the players will go along with it if they're enjoying the campaign and respect the DM. It does rely on the DM being competent re: this kind of thing but the internet/guides can supplement or replace that knowledge. My concern would be that the DM actually has concerns that are so severe that completely basic options that he doesn't feel he could disagree with are causing the "problem" but given he won't release the relevant information, we can't know. An alternate and equally-useful outcome would be the entire group telling the DM that he is being unreasonable and they don't see any problem with how things are. Perhaps hearing it from them he would accept it? If not this will certainly bring things to a head!

 

[iserith]

Yup this really renders the problem non-solvable. We've seen this before - if someone won't set out either the parameters of their actual problem, nor even the parameters of their desired resolution/outcome, then it's impossible to give actually-useful advice.

It could well be that the goal wasn't to get useful advice at all, but just to complain in public about it and perhaps enjoy some commiseration. There are plenty of DMs out there that take a dim view of optimization or skillful play by players for a variety of reasons.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It could well be that the goal wasn't to get useful advice at all, but just to complain in public about it and perhaps enjoy some commiseration. There are plenty of DMs out there that take a dim view of optimization or skillful play by players for a variety of reasons.

Yes and I think that can be legit, though I do think it's unfair on other posters if moan threads are presented as "help me fix this" threads.

 

[iserith]

Yes and I think that can be legit, though I do think it's unfair on other posters if moan threads are presented as "help me fix this" threads.

Me, I assume that players will optimize because they're incentivized to do so by the very nature of the game. (If you're not at least somewhat skillful, your character may die.) So I craft and run my game accordingly. Those who optimize can test their skills. Those who don't optimize have a slightly higher difficulty level to deal with which they then rise to the occasion to mitigate. My game doesn't lack for "story" or roleplaying either as a result. We really can have it all.

 

[overgeeked]

Player problems are about the players. Why does the player insist on such a character?

Direct quote: “Not optimizing is dumb.”

Do they understand how their play affects others at the table?

Yep. And they don’t care. See above.

Do they feel they game can be won?

Yes.

Do they see each gaming session as a set of challenges to overcome/win?

Yes.

Are they really looking to play a superhero game where the superheroes always win?

That certainly how he plays D&D. We’ve talked about other genres. Not much interest outside of one shots.

Can they, or would they appreciate nuance and having a character be forced to chose between two bad options? Are they willing to explore social/personal challenges of their characters that maybe can't be 'won'?

No to both. The worst of the two treats it like a video game. He has zero interest in anything outside of optimization and combat.

 

[overgeeked]

Without knowing more about the game or how exactly these supposed "jerks" are disrupting it with their optimized characters, it's a bit difficult to provide any useful advice, given that the standard advice of "talking to them" was rejected out of hand.

Repeatedly tried and failed, not rejected.

 

[overgeeked]

Me, I assume that players will optimize because they're incentivized to do so by the very nature of the game. (If you're not at least somewhat skillful, your character may die.) So I craft and run my game accordingly. Those who optimize can test their skills. Those who don't optimize have a slightly higher difficulty level to deal with which they then rise to the occasion to mitigate.

This is where defining terms comes in. I’m not talking about the obvious steps of race/class synergy. Or really even playing with the action economy a bit. That’s not optimizing to me. It’s optimizing when it breaks the game. Twilight and Peace combo. Coffeelock. Regularly doing double the max crit damage of other characters. Trivializing combat. Constantly overshadowing the other characters. That’s when it becomes problematic. That’s the level of optimizing I’m talking about.

My game doesn't lack for "story" or roleplaying either as a result. We really can have it all.

They treat D&D time as a video game. They don’t engage the story any more than absolutely necessary. The rest of the table prefer character heavy roleplay, immersion, and exploration. The two optimizers don’t care about anything but combat.

So new question to the thread. How do you convince and avowed optimizer to stop? This is a player who said, and I quote, “not optimizing is dumb.” And has legit said things like get good and learn to play. Not directly to the non-optimizers that I’m aware of, but has said as much about them. These two literally don’t care they’re directly causing the rest of the table to have a bad time. I’ve tried pointing them to support roles like Treantmonk’s god wizard, but as that’s not a “big spotlight” character there was no interest. The idea of Twilight and Peace was a big hit because they’d never worry about dying again.

 

[LordEntrails]

I don't think there is much of a middle ground. You seem to have players with nearly opposed desires.

I hate to say it, but I think it's time to drop some players. Or maybe run 2 games. One for optimizers that is all about combat. A good dungeon delve with minimal traps/hazards works well for these players. Kick in the door, kill what's on the other side.

The other game focusing on roleplaying and interactions. Use all 3 pillars and let the characters tell a new and nuanced story.

 

[LordEntrails]

So new question to the thread. How do you convince and avowed optimizer to stop?

You don't. They have to want to change.

They don't want to play the same game as the others. You're not going to change them.

 

[overgeeked]

You don't. They have to want to change.

They don't want to play the same game as the others. You're not going to change them.

It was kinda rhetorical. I don’t want to stop them from having fun. I want them to stop destroying the fun of the other players. They don’t care and I don’t know how to make them care. As you say, incompatible playstyles.