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D&D 5E Dealing with optimizers at the table

Marc_C

Solitary Role Playing
Yes, that is the better way to resolve it. "Let's wrap this up..." is better than "I attack this NPC we just spent 30 minutes talking to because I'm bored."
Indeed. Except that in the example I gave the negotiation took no more than 4-5 minutes. I'm an efficient DM. The player just had a very low threshold for social encounters at the juncture. He grew to like them and use them to his advantage.
 

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NotAYakk

Legend
I think the real issue in your example is that the ranger's player has the wrong expectations. I play a beast master ranger, for example. I do decent enough damage, just not as much as the barbarian in my group. But when it's time to travel to our next destination, everyone absolutely looks to me to make sure the party travels swiftly, doesn't get lost, and is aware of what kinds what monsters we might face ahead so they can prepare. He's better at combat. I'm better at exploration. The bard in the group is better at social.
There is "I am the best at combat" and "I am a useful contributor in combat".

Someone dealing 20 damage per round is not a useful contributor in a combat next to someone dealing 100. They could skip their turn, and the narrative of the battle probably wouldn't change. And that sucks.

And I consider it reasonable for a baseline ranger to expect to be a useful contributor in combat without engaging in charop.

Notice that after I gave out those crazy Flamedancers, the BM was still better in combat than the Ranger. But by something like +50% over the Ranger, not by a 500% multiplier. (also, if that ranger took SS, they'd still not exceed their melee DPS if I did it right; -5 to hit for +30 damage, assuming they cast a bonus action spell every round)
In the hexcrawl campaign that I run, the ranger in the group won't make the session tonight. The party has been fretting at his absence all week in Discord. Not because he's great in combat, but because they know they will likely get lost and, due to events that have arisen organically during play, they really can't afford a lot of wandering around right now, nor fighting a lot of monsters despite the combat ability of some in the group. In this case, they really need someone good at exploration and they don't have it.

If, however, two PCs who are actually supposed to be capable in combat have a big disparity, to your point, this can be a problem of sharing the spotlight. I don't tend to care about this as a player though because I put the party first and a teammate who is better than me in certain areas - even areas I try to be good in - helps everyone. Granted not every player sees things this way.
And sure, playing a bard who doesn't deal damage is also fun.

But that bard is probably doing neat support stuff in the fight (if they aren't, the DM should ... hand out an instrument of the bards, which should make a large difference. Oh my, the magic item lever again).

You'll also notice that the "better than they already have, somewhat useful in combat" Glaive I suggested for the charop BM added features that makes the BM useful outside of combat. That was intentional.
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Yes, well, obviously I'm talking about a scene that is well past its expiration date. Because that is a thing a lot of DMs do in my experience. They don't know when to say "CUT!"
It's always a challenge, just because I have players in all my groups for whom "have long, drawn-out conversations with almost any semi-relevant NPC" is their #1 play priority. :)
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Coffeelocks were also specifically mentioned.

If most PCs aren’t optimized, I could see sorcadins overshadowing the other players.

Honestly, it feels like the whole “you can’t break 5e” crowd has blinders on. If 5 of the players aren’t focussed on optimization (which the OP has already told us), it is pretty easy to make a moderately optimized character that outputs 2x or 3x the damage of the majority of the party.
Yea, but 2x, maybe 3x damage isn't game breaking, it's just slightly annoying. As @NotAYakk has pointed out, it's easy to fix with targeted buffs via magic items.
 


My model isn't that a build ruins the game, my model is that a build compared to other party members ruins the experience.

A level 11 BM PAM GWM fighter can more than double the damage output of a naively built level 11 Ranger. They can hit 5 attacks/round reliably, connect for 20+ damage per hit, and connect reliably.

The naively built level 11 Ranger gets no noticable combat features from their subclass, mixes melee and ranged attacks (has TWF style), and does 2 attacks for about 10 damage at about the same hitrate at the BM's attacks.

If the player playing the level 11 ranger has in their head "I am a competent combatant" as part of their character image, this is completely broken. They are basically a non-combatant next to the more optimized PC.

A party where everyone is in the same league as that Battlemaster is a playable game of D&D.

A party where everyone is in the same league as the Ranger is a playable game of D&D.

A party where both are in it, well, it sort of breaks down. Making combat hard enough that the BM is challenged makes the Ranger into a speedbump. Making combat where the Ranger can contribute is trivial.

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If your position, as a DM, is "I don't want to do anything" to deal with party power differences, then this is frustrating.

On the other hand, this specific case is fixable as a DM.

You give out the Glaive of Lost Souls, a +2 glaive that lets you cast "Soul Cage" 1/rest when you kill someone with it (only 1 at a time), and grants temporary HP on a hit. This doesn't boost the BM's offensive capabilities much more than a +2 weapon, but is awesome cool. If this is the only +2 polearm the BM is likely to find, they should still find it combat-optimal.

For the ranger, you give out Flamedancers. These rings can manifest either a pair of scimitars or a longbow. As a pair of scimitars, they are +2 scimitars that deal an extra 2d6 fire damage, and when using the two-weapon fighting bonus action you can attack twice instead of once. As a bow, it is a +2 bow that summons +2 arrows with Flame Arrow cast on them, and when you cast a spell as an action or bonus action you can also fire the bow once. In either mode, when you are hit by an attack as a reaction you can attack back; if your reaction attack hits, the triggering attack has to reroll with disadvantage.

The ranger goes from dealing 20-30 damage if everything hits (+7-10 if using HM) to dealing 66-85 (ranged-melee) (+10-14 if using HM).

The BM goes from dealing 100 damage if everything hits to dealing 105 damage.

Instead of being in different leagues, they are now in the same league.

If the BM is a sharpshooting XBE, then you'd have to do a different approach. A cloak that lets you cast HM when you hit a creature without expending concentration, and makes it deal 3d6 damage? Why not!

You, as the DM, have that lever.

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Now, quite rightly this will trivialize the combats the party was facing prior to that kind of upgrade. But they where already trivial due to combat optimization of the 2 of the PCs.

Now, however, you are free to 2x, 3x or even 4x the HP of enemy monsters, or grant them resistance to all BPS damage, or whatever. (Don't do the same thing every time).

Come up with story reasons why these evil humanoids all have resistance to BPS. Maybe they are all frothing barbarians, or are life-linked to the liches soul cages with a tattoo.

And the game continues on.

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Things go poorly if you mix the crazy items (or boons) with the high charop PCs. And the temptation to go overboard, and boost the non-charop combat abilities way over the charop PCs, is there (I'd resist it; the goal is not to punish, but to make the game fun).

A side benefit of making items customized to boost the non-combat abilities of the combat-charop PCs (like the soul cage thing above) is that people, when given toys, want to use those toys.

When they kill a creature, they get to ask the killed creature a question and get an honest answer. They get to compel the DM to give them a strait answer for once. For many people trapped by the "combat mechanics is the only way I can reliably get to impose my vision on the narrative" damaged players, that is like heroin, and can get them interested in the story.

Some DM using one of those annoying Cagey NPCs dropping hints? Just kill them and interrogate their soul.

But, get in a fight with some assassins hunting you down? Kill the boss, and get an honest answer who hired them and why.

This might seem like a dead-weight loss. But by giving the PCs mechanical ways to interact with the plot, odds are they start giving a naughty word about the plot.
You know what, you;ve changed my mind: Optimization could be part of the problem

I still think OP isn't going to fix their game by fixing the optimization issue - the optimized players aren't playing in good faith - but I previously would have said optimization isn't a problem without broken houserules/rulings.
 

I have seen most of those played, I don't think any of them are broken.
If the baseline of your game is sorcadins and sorlocks are common, wizards start with a 2-level dip in fighter for armor and action surge, life clerics all have goodberry to maximize their healing and every fighter takes Sharpshooter or GWM, than no, those builds probably aren’t broken.

If instead, the baseline of your game is a Archfey warlock (pseudodragon familiar) who multiclasses druid for the nature theme, than yes, the sorcadin will probably break your game.
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
My NPCs would be like "Alright, well, anyway I have stuff to do and so do you. Good luck!" then fake walk down some stairs to escape the conversation.
I certainly do that, but enjoying the NPC interaction part of the game is a legitimate playstyle and I don't mind supporting it.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
There is "I am the best at combat" and "I am a useful contributor in combat".

Someone dealing 20 damage per round is not a useful contributor in a combat next to someone dealing 100. They could skip their turn, and the narrative of the battle probably wouldn't change. And that sucks.
I really can't agree as a player. I could care less how much someone outstrips me in damage. I get that not every player thinks this way. But I'm more team-oriented - a teammate who does well is good for me and everyone else.
 

I certainly do that, but enjoying the NPC interaction part of the game is a legitimate playstyle and I don't mind supporting it.
Just make sure the other players aren't falling asleep during these conversations (I'm the other player in this scenario. I sometimes play with a guy who insists on talking to every npc in the village every time we go there - it can take 2-3 hours of playtime.)
 

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