D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[tetrasodium]

Create an interesting villain.

Make the pronouns she/her.

Voila! You have a good female Darklord.

Or, another way to look at it: Take Azalin. Imagine a female Azalin. Does it work? Can you have a lich desperate for magic and to escape to another world who happens to be female? Would you have to change anything about her story to make it work?

Now, imagine a male Gabrielle Aderre. Assume that he, too, wants a lover and child but is cursed. Well, male (half)-Vistani don't have the Sight and can't really use the Tarokka, so he would have no reason to know that Malocchio was the Dukkar--and thus would have no reason to care when this baby is dumped on his doorstop, assuming he even got together with a (presumably female-shaped) Phantom Lover in the first place.

And female Gabrielle's other big plot is that she doesn't know if her baby is a human, like one lover, or a wolfwere, like the other lover; either way, it will spell disaster for her and for relations with other Domains. Male Gabriel doesn't have to worry about this issue at all.

And, of course, a Gabriel Aderre would likely not have been dismissed as "The Witch Aderre" by his people.

I might be misreading that but pretty sure those are all existing ravenloft folks. is that a no on the examples from history or fiction (novels tv/movies/anime/etc) or are our lines crossed? Going from this is your evil to this is the punishment is easy from there & allows a common starting point for discussion

 

[Faolyn]

I might be misreading that but pretty sure those are all existing ravenloft folks. is that a no on the examples from history or fiction (novels tv/movies/anime/etc) or are our lines crossed? Going from this is your evil to this is the punishment is easy from there & allows a common starting point for discussion

That's a "I don't feel like doing a ton of research to figure out what historical or media villain plots would make for cool Darklords when it's a lot easier for me to make something up, particularly because I almost never use the Darklords in my Ravenloft games to begin with."

 

[Bedrockgames]

I would say it's not reductive at all. Why does she hate the Vistani? Because her Vistani mother cursed her to never be able to have "a man, a babe, a home" (as per Black Box) because such things would only bring her tragedy.

Villains are supposed to be interesting; they are often much more interesting than the heroes. A villain whose entire identity is "likes to screw others over because she can't have a man" is a high school villain.

You are making a lot of interesting points but I am finding I only have time today to hit on one or two (since some of this requires me sifting through the old Ravenloft books). Right now I am tackling the threads I can. Will try to return to these later

Her Vistani mother didn't curse her. Her Vistani mother warned her, because she was the daughter of a very evil man (someone whose identity is only implied in the Black Box). It is one of the single most intriguing entries in the book for that reason. And what burns Gabrielle isn't that she can't have a man. You are simplifying her backstory to fit a narrative that does not match the character. She wants the things that in her mind make for a normal life: a home, a child, a husband; and she wants to be accepted as a vistani by the vistani. She is an outcast among outcasts (because the Vistani reject her for not being pure Vistani, even though her bloodline goes back to Madame Eva); and she burns with resentment for people who can live a normal life. This, again, is a highly relatable story and not one unique to a woman who 'wants a man'. Anyone who has longed for something in life that was 'normal' that they couldn't have, because of accidents of who they are or what befell them, will find something that resonates her. The mystery around her father alone was wonderful (and I loved that it was hidden there if you knew where to look in the black box, but they never actually came out and said it).

Further what makes an interesting villain is a good backstory (which I would argue she has in spades), popping off the page, being both appealing and repugnant at the same time; and being terrifying. She meets all those qualifications handily. Obviously this is subjective. All I can say is I thought this was a great character from the very beginning, one of the stand out characters in fact (maybe because of family background a domain lord and domain built around the evil eye had special appeal to me); she is obviously a common gothic trope too (she is described as a witch in the domain entry, which is how the inhabitants see her). But this was definitely one of the domain lords I instantly knew I could use, and a domain I immediately could imagine and think of great adventures to set in.

I would argue very strongly she isn't a high school villain. This is a common trope, taken to a whole new, very memorable level. In fact one of the worst pieces of meta plot, IMO, was having her son become the political leader of Invidia. That character was a pale imitation of her, and a product of meta plot (which is something I think the line deserves criticism for in the 90s). She was a vibrant villain. He was terrible and boring. Having Gabrielle Adere couple with the Gentleman Caller to produce Malocchio, now that is something I can get behind criticizing. It felt very out of character, forced, and it really hurt her as a villain in my opinion (the Gentleman Caller really was one of the worst entries in the setting in my view).

It's lazy because the male characters get intriguing backstories and goals while the female ones don't; because their characterization is centered entirely around the ideas that a Complete Woman needs a man and a child in order to be happy, and a Woman who doesn't have them is Incomplete and Evil.

This isn't lazy. It isn't interesting or uninteresting on its own. And I think you are projecting messages on to the backstories that are not there. A lot of these are just characters who want love. Maybe there are more male characters motivated by that (as there are more male dark lords and I agree there should be more female dark lords). But maybe the problem is not enough male characters are motivated by that kind of romantic desire, or by a desire to have a normal life. I tend to doubt it, as I think a lot of the male dark lords were motivated by similar things. But I would honestly need more time to assess. I am not saying you are correct either, that it was present and ubiquitous in old Ravenloft (I think you are actually wrong, but to tackle that topic with the length it deserves would require an amount of review that I just don't have time for today).

All this is, I think, is something that doesn't line up with current views on gender. Which is fine. You can talk about that if you want. But I don't think that is a matter of writing or design quality on its own. That is more a matter of whether the content is ethical (which we could debate all day). Again, this line is 30 years old. I think not only are people not understanding it in the context of its time (where many of these tropes would have read very, very differently: for example in an age when Riot Grrrl was a big thing, the idea that female characters were motivated by a hatred of men would have been transgressive and in some instances seen as empowering (not saying they were all motivated by that, or that they should be, but I think the 'message' is very different 30 years ago in that context than it is today, and a lot of the discussion here seems to be losing that context: that is one reason why I keep reminding people there were so many female writers involved in Ravenloft). But just having a checklist of things that match modern sensibilities, and making sure domain lords meet those things: that doesn't make it more interesting in my opinion. And that, is definitely closer to lazy because you are literally just going down a list rather than sitting there and thinking about it, making it interesting and compelling. It just makes it more in line with current sensibilities (or perhaps not, I am not sure all the critiques here reflect current sensibilities).

 

[Bedrockgames]

And, of course, a Gabriel Aderre would likely not have been dismissed as "The Witch Aderre" by his people.

They don't dismiss her. They fear her. Her presence heralds conflict and bitterness. A witch isn't a figure you dismiss, it is a powerful figure you fear.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Or, another way to look at it: Take Azalin. Imagine a female Azalin. Does it work? Can you have a lich desperate for magic and to escape to another world who happens to be female? Would you have to change anything about her story to make it work?

Azlin was one of the most disruptive, annoying and least scary villains in the setting IMO. I think making him female would not change that unless you changed his character. Darkon was the domain I used least, and part of it was because it just felt too much like a standard fantasy domain, but also, I just never understood what made Azlin interesting. He lacked the melodrama and darkness of Strahd or Aderre. He would have been fine in a normal fantasy campaign as a powerful threat. I didn't think he fit Ravenloft as well as many of the other lords

 

[Bedrockgames]

I would gladly take a female darklord who:

• Kills people in order to make their corpses into art or as the models for her art, and now her art style is unpopular or actively reviled throughout her domain; plus, artistic zombies and other such undead haunt the realm.
• Does social experiments on children, and the mental horrors she inflicts on them turns them into literal monsters who now haunt her domain; worse, she can never get the results she wants to under lab conditions.
• Claims to be a prophet or even reincarnation of Ezra and has amassed a devoted group of followers--but her view on who is saved by Ezra and who is secretly part of the Legion of the Night is highly skewed.
• Became a ghost who possesses people in the hopes of helping them fulfill their life's goals, but whose own issues cause her to inevitably ruin her host's lives; she can't allow herself to not meddle, and therefore can never be free of her curse.
• Arranged for her rivals to die or be ruined because she feels she would do a better job as the political leader of the country, and upon being made a Darklord, she's proven to be a terrible leader.
• Got so fed up with her job as a lowly servant that she gladly took that strange person's offer to become a beautiful princess--but who turned her into a monster princess; now bereft of her humanity and the princess of a realm where everyone fears her greatly, she tries to fulfill her new role, but her human and monster sides constantly clash.

I am all for more female dark lords, and the variety that would lead to. I just don't think female dark lords who have other types of motivations (even if those could be motivations centered around men in some way: and again I do want to be clear I think you are greatly oversimplifying in some of those instances) are any less interesting. I always find characters in horror who are motivated by love or a desire to have something like a normal life, to be much more compelling. At the same time I like eccentric villains who have total disregard for these things as well. So the more there is the better. I just don't think you can say, these characters are bad because they don't pass a modern bechdel test. That just has more to do with are they in line with what we think of today about gender. It is a don't throw the baby out with the bathwater situation (no pun intended)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Because the male Darklords have interesting backstories and goals and engage in interesting activities.

The female Darklords do not.

This isn't about how well the writing clashes with my worldview. The writers very clearly had the ability to make truly interesting villains. They exercised that ability frequently. But when it came to writing female Darklords, they stuck with the very standard and sexist trope of "women need men and babies, and those who don't have men and babies are evil."

We disagree fundamentally on this. It is subjective, but I find Ivana, Gabrielle and Jacqueline to have some of the best backstories in the early setting (and we only got a glimpse of Ivana unfortunately at that stage). I would argue these three characters were all great villains. Again, I think we are mixing 'does this go against modern sensibilities of what tropes are wholesome and what are not' versus what is compelling and interesting. You can definitely have both if you want. But something isn't uninteresting or bad simply because it is tied to wanting a man or wanting love. I would say especially in the case of Jacqueline. That was always a really cool backstory IMO. Also I don't think the message was that women need men and babies, and those who don't have them are evil. These are dark lords: they are all going to be evil, and they are all going to be driven to evil by desires and needs that in most people produce good. I think again, content does not equal message (especially in the 90s)

 

[Faolyn]

@Bedrockgames, at this point, I can only assume that you are (A) a man and (B) don't actually understand sexism. So I will say it one more time:

No, something isn't uninteresting or bad just because it involves a woman who wants a man.

It is uninteresting and bad when almost every single female darklord's backstory revolves around men, children, and/or acting out of jealousy towards women who are pretty, in relationships, or are happy mothers.

This is the textbook result of a lazy writing of a woman's backstory, based on the erroneous and sexist belief that women need to have men and babies in order to be complete and happy. The fact that you find it compelling indicates you have not read a lot of well-written women.

 

[Remathilis]

(the Gentleman Caller really was one of the worst entries in the setting in my view)

We finally found something to agree one!

Ok, he was cool when he was a one-off minor Darklord who fit the "Old Scratch" motif, but man did the later Metaplot really make him the BBEG of the whole setting. The more they used him, the more Marty Stu he became.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It is uninteresting and bad when almost every single female darklord's backstory revolves around men, children, and/or acting out of jealousy towards women who are pretty, in relationships, or are happy mothers.

This is the textbook result of a lazy writing of a woman's backstory, based on the erroneous and sexist belief that women need to have men and babies in order to be complete and happy. The fact that you find it compelling indicates you have not read a lot of well-written women.

You are simplifying my position in the same way you are simplifying the Gabrielle Aderre entry to fit the idea you have about it. First, I don't think every female character is built like this in the black box. Gabrielle Aderre is much more than a character who wants those things. I made several posts about the character and how much more involved she is than your bullet points about her suggest. Second, even if we accept this is true, that almost every single female darklord's backstory revolves around "men, children, and/or acting out of jealousy towards women who are pretty, in relationships, or are happy mothers." That doesn't make them lazy writing, bad or even sexist. It makes them somewhat repetitive. Narrow perhaps. Not varied enough. But three of the strongest Darklord's in the RoT box set are Aderre, Boritsi and Renier. I would even argue the three hags and the banshee in keening in RoT were compelling to an extent (though again this stuff didn't get elaborated on until later books). I agree with you, we definitely needed more female dark lords (especially when you consider how good the ones we got were); and I think that would have led to more varied entries. I just think gothic horror connects very well to thins like familial relationships, parenthood, lovers, jealousy, etc.

Edit: Covering a lot of the same ground can still be interesting. It is totally besides the point but one of my favorite writers makes tons of cool eccentric characters. Often the characters are very similar, with similar quirks and backstories, but they are all still highly entertaining and fitting to the genre in question. Now someone could consciously come into this writer's world and consciously change all those tropes so they are more varied. But that probably wouldn't make it better: it would just make it more varied (and in this particular case, with this writer, I think a lot of key themes would be lost were one to do that). Sometimes writers just have something like that on their mind. Maybe when Ravenloft RoT was written, the writers weren't being lazy, those themes were on their mind or weighing on them for some reason. I think it is close minded of us to expect works to all meet these kinds of criteria.

I have read a lot of well written female characters. We may find different things compelling, and that is fine. I disagree with you, that doesn't make me a bad person or poorly read. I personally like films and books with well written female leads. I just don't take well written to mean "in sync with my politics". And I am pretty open minded about tropes. I think a lot of what is going on here is a rapid judgement, ignoring the context of the times, and judging entries against a list of how well it fits into a given lens, rather than trusting our immediate emotional response to it (which I think is more informative). Finally, I just saw in play that these characters worked. Could certainly have used more. If there is a failing of that original boxed set, it is they didn't give us enough female domain lords, and they didn't cover enough of the female characters in the Who's Doomed section (though there are two other female NPCs in there as I recall that are not domain lords).