D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Bedrockgames]

We finally found something to agree one!

Ok, he was cool when he was a one-off minor Darklord who fit the "Old Scratch" motif, but man did the later Metaplot really make him the BBEG of the whole setting. The more they used him, the more Marty Stu he became.

Agreed. I could ignore him as a one-off minor Dark Lord. But I never understood why they tried fitting him to Gabrielle Aderre's story in that way. Also, with her backstory, the whole point is the father is kind of meaningless, because the evil resides in her due to how evil her father was (and how powerful her ancestor Madame Eva was). To me that greatly reduced her character from being one of the most evil and terrifying to more peripheral dark lord status.

 

[Bedrockgames]

This is the textbook result of a lazy writing of a woman's backstory, based on the erroneous and sexist belief that women need to have men and babies in order to be complete and happy.

Again, this isn't what those things are saying. Sometimes they are actually saying the opposite of that. That was my whole point about content doesn't equal message. These are dark lords. They are going to be twisted. The lesson of Gabrielle Aderre isn't that women need men and babies to be happy. The lesson is that people being denied acceptance and recognition, that being outcast and ostracized can fill them with hate and turn them into monsters. The bits about a baby, a home and a man are just stand ins for a desire for a normal life.

 

[Bedrockgames]

If it was about sheer negativity, the Dark Powers would have, odds-on, imprisoned ONE good (or at least non-horrible) person at some stage. It's obviously more complicated than that - and equally obviously from a meta point of view there's not really any rhyme or reason or secret canonical explanation as to why they do what they do that's hidden in a top-secret safe at WotC HQ. I don't think about the 'why' of the Dark Powers very much to be honest - and i suspect the designers don't either. The Dark Powers do what's convenient for the game line. Trying to find a logical explanation for their activities is a bit on the doomed side...

The dark powers were intended to be mysterious (or Misterious ). I am of the opinion that, the less we know about them, the less we understand about their motivations, the better. All I need to know is they respond to evil, rewarding and punishing, and there appears to be a kind of poetic justice in how they respond. Everyone has a pet theory, and many of them are interesting. But I always found even the most interesting pet theory demystifies the setting too much for me.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Fiction from previous decades or centuries, written by and for women, may have got some tropes today aren't too popular. Now people from this generations want to do the things with other style, but this doesn't mean we have to reject all the past. And most of villainess/female antagonists from female/shojo literature aren't the villains/big bad guys from shone/male fiction, because female writters and reader have got different tastes and points of view.

Some "good" villains have got some pieces of "anti-villains". Usually the dark lords have some some tragic background, but in my opinion the true tragedy is the end of their curses are nearer they can imagine, almost front of the own noses, but they are too selfish and proud to try the redemption and leaving the dark side of the force. Really they are dooming themself because they are rejecting the teaching of the piaous souls. They are like drug-addicts who don't want to reject their vices. And their sins are worse when one of them comes back to the good path, and with her sacrifice shows the right way. It is tragicomic as when in the end of the story the main characters discover (too late?) the antidote against the ghoul bite was those flowers from the covent what they could watch everytime, or the waters from the source of a sacred place.

A character as Daenerys Targaryen, the khaleesi, the mother of dragons, may be an interesting (female) darklord.

If you want dark lords the web Fraternity of Shadows has got enough to feel sick. Literally more of hundreds, and I guess it doesn't matter about them to be canon or not. In my land we say "don't see teeth of gifted horse" ( = if it's free, a gift, then don't worry about to be enough good because that is better than nothing).

Category:Darklord - Mistipedia

* Ravenloft is gothic horror mainly, but with some space for the dark comedy.

* When I want to add a lot of things the demiplane becomes a too small "sandbox". If I want plots about conflicts between supernatural factions, as vampire clans and werewolves tribes, then I need more space, maybe not only a complete planet, but a "crystal sphere".

 

[Paul Farquhar]

This is the textbook result of a lazy writing of a woman's backstory, based on the erroneous and sexist belief that women need to have men and babies in order to be complete and happy.

Most people need a family in order to be happy, irrespective of gender.

Otherwise the species would become extinct.

What has changed is it used to be okay for women to admit it but not men, and now the situation is reversed.

 

[Remathilis]

Most people need a family in order to be happy, irrespective of gender.

Otherwise the species would become extinct.

What has changed is it used to be okay for women to admit it but not men, and now the situation is reversed.

Yago Petrenova seeks the blessing of a God he's not even sure exists.
Azalin seeks magical knowledge that forever eludes him which would allow him escape his prison.
Anhktepot seeks a way to live again not as an undead husk but as a living breathing man.
Gabrielle Adierre seeks revenge against Vistani and happy couples because her mother's words left her isolated and lonely.
Jacqueline Renier seeks someone to reciprocate her romantic feelings, a unique trait among wererats. She is literally cursed to love!

Male Darklords have a variety of goals: power, respect, knowledge, vengeance, lust. The females tend towards either acceptance or jealousy. Exceptions occur, but Bluebeard and Faith-hold are exceptions that prove the rule.

Give some of the new female Darklords motivation beyond domestics is all we're asking.

 

[Voadam]

Tristessa's grief though is about motherhood. Not that its a bad origin story; la llorona is popular for a reason. Still, with all the evil manipulations of classical female drow, the only drow darklord left is a banshee searching for child, reminding us that even in a matriarchal demon-worshipping society, her tragedy is defined by the very womanly role of mother.

Well yeah, I was responding to your comment about looking for a female darklord's story that was not focused on a man and I consider mother child relationship being different in type from woman-man romantic partner relationship focus.

While money is cetainly an important role in their origin, their story mostly involves killing a guy who was two-timing all of them and working them up into a jealous rage. I guess sistas-before-mistas?

I was just re-reading this in Darklords, the focus as written seems to me to be more about jealousy of their sisters getting something they want without them (a way out of their undesired beginnings) rather than jealousy over wanting his love which none of them really cared about. The write up seems to say they are jealous of anybody's happiness and they will sabotage even their partner sisters' chances for betterment if it means being left behind, and they are each aware the others will try and leave them behind and will sabotage each others' chances at happiness without them. A toxic brew that seems more focused on self and sisters than specifically on men or prettier women.

 

[Bedrockgames]

She is literally cursed to love!

She is cursed to desire love and to be rejected.

No one is saying you shouldn't' have more varied female dark lords. I have said over and over, there should have been more female dark lords, and if you had more, they would have been more varied. But my point is you shouldn't get rid of or avoid characters like Ivana Boritsi, Jacqueline Renier or Gabrielle Aderre because those are three of the best dark lords from the original line (heads and shoulders above the male dark lords you mentioned IMO). The more interesting male dark lords, tend to be more like these three, and the reason, I think, is largely because of the gothic setting (where romance is a very important thing). True you still want other characters who aren't those things. It should be all characters who are in love, dealing with family issues, etc. But there should be a sizable number of characters featuring those things. It will lack the romance and melodrama that made the setting great if you don't. So I am simply saying, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Don't classify great female dark lords as weak, lazy or bad design, simply because there were not more varied entries (the lack of a female equivalent to Azalin doesn't make Jacqueline Renier less interesting or cool: she is a much better domain lord than Azalin).

 

[Bedrockgames]

I was just re-reading this in Darklords, the focus as written seems to me to be more about jealousy of their sisters getting something they want without them (a way out of their undesired beginnings) rather than jealousy over wanting his love which none of them really cared about. The write up seems to say they are jealous of anybody's happiness and they will sabotage even their partner sisters' chances for betterment if it means being left behind, and they are each aware the others will try and leave them behind and will sabotage each others' chances at happiness without them. A toxic brew that seems more focused on self and sisters than specifically on men or prettier women.

There is a lot of oversimplification of these characters going on in this thread IMO in order to make a case.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Most people need a family in order to be happy, irrespective of gender.

This is sort of what I was trying to get at. You don't need every character, male or female, to be about this, but I do think the majority should be focused on things related to love, family, etc. Or at the very least, you need some stand outs who are. Strahd's story has impact because it his love lead to jealousy and murder of his own brother, and the suicide of Tatyana. And he is the quintessential domain lord. If you are going to have tragic and cursed villains, they are going to be more relatable if they want things that people can identify with and understand. And if you want drama and melodrama, these kinds of backstories really fuel that. Yes you also want split personality psychos, mad scientists, religious fanatics, but even some of these characters can be rounded out with love in the motivations (not all need be). If you scrutinize characters like Mordenheim, he wants a baby too. Adam despises his father, but cannot bring himself to kill him. This is the kind of stuff that you often see in gothic horror. And let's not reduce characters like Aderre to one element of their backstory. There is usually a lot more going on with these charters than people are admitting because they want to pain them as badly written in order to make a point about how Ravenloft should be now.