D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Faolyn]

Bedrockgames, could you please try to reply to me all in one post? Edit if you have to to include additional notes. As it is, it's incredibly hard to follow what you're saying and reply to you.

the ones I found the most dull or that just didn't resonate with me, were the ones doing what you are saying the female domain lords are not doing (I realize this is terribly awkward phrasing---but struggling to come up with precision here).

I honestly can't understand why. The ones who were so focused on romance not only did very little else, but they put their agency in another person who didn't actually even exist. Ivana, Gabrielle, and Jacqueline twit around being petty and angry because they can't get a date and then destroy other people's relationships out of jealous spite. It literally doesn't matter that they are magically cursed to their loveless misery; it's still the same dull plot found in probably at half of every TV show or movie set in a high school.

I mean, the male Darklords may not have particularly deep backgrounds and motivations, but at least they mostly have different ones.

It wasn't the 1950s. It was the early 90s and there was a lot of progressive thought happening,

If you do reddit, look at subs like nothowgirlswork, menwritingwomen, and pointlesslygendered. Those beliefs are still prevalent. Sexism, and the belief that women capital-N need men and babies, is still alive, even among the younger people.

Maybe they were projecting things that were personally meaningful to them

Doubtful, or more of the men would be completely centered around their need for love. As it is, there's one: Dominic. Strahd may pine after Tatyana, but it's not what defines him in the same way the need for love defines Gabrielle, Jacqueline, and Ivana.

I don't know. Those kinds of characters were the rage at the time. I think there were a lot of reasons, a lot of it was that horror was moving in a more introspective, intelligent and emotional direction I think. I also think men were opening up more to those things. There was also a revived interest in gothic horror. But I can't really say why

I was asking why you felt Jacqueline Reneir was more like the male villains from the era.

 

[Remathilis]

The desire for power and control are as much fundamental human needs as the need for romance. As are needs to be appreciated, to create art, to prove one's worth, to get justice,

And again, having a desire for romance is fine. Having that as your only purpose is boring and stereotypically sexist when it applies to women.


Which as I said elsewhere, is not an excuse.


Which is why I said I wanted new female Darklords with motivations other than just romance.

And that's not really much of an excuse, because while Ravenloft has a lot more real-world basis than most D&D settings, it's still fantasy and has had few problems with women in political power (nobody has tried to depose the female political leaders in favor of a male, for instance).

But for some reason, a lot of people who, judging by comments and usernames are male, seem to think that I'm attacking the whole institution of romance by saying that women should have a motivation beyond it.

After all, it's not like you or Bedrockgames or some of the others have said, "Hey, maybe those female darklords could use some rewrite to give them additional interests or at least something to do all day other than have parties and ruin other people's relationships," or "You know, I really like Aderre and Reneir and Boritsi, but yeah, we could use us a new strong Core-realms Darklady who don't need no man."

Instead you guys double down on how important romance is, and how the male Darklords suck too so it's OK, how it's based on old horror novels like it's impossible to create a Domain that isn't based on them, making it really seem to me that you have a problem with the idea of women not being overly devoted to men.

The amount of mansplaining has been staggering.

What I think is funny is that very little need be changed to downplay the domestic elements of each mentioned Darklord.

Gabrielle Adierre could be focused on her parentage denying her a place in Vistani society. Her loneliness tied to her "family" shunning her and her taking it out on all Vistani and wanderers into her realm. Jacqueline could be a cunning wererat who is denied political power because she's a girl; with male leaders taking credit and glory for HER ideas. A small change that could give them a hook other than "I can't have a man".

 

[Bedrockgames]

I was asking why you felt Jacqueline Reneir was more like the male villains from the era.

I was saying characters who desire love were popular at the time, one of the big ones that was seeing greater popularity again because of the broadway play was Phantom of the Opera. Her curse was reminiscent of that.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Bedrockgames, could you please try to reply to me all in one post? Edit if you have to to include additional notes. As it is, it's incredibly hard to follow what you're saying and reply to you.

I have addressed this is elsewhere in the thread, I really don't have an easy time with the quote interface. I find it a lot easier to break up each comment and deal with it individually (both in terms of formatting but also in terms of thinking about what the person said and reacting to it)

 

[Bedrockgames]

I honestly can't understand why. The ones who were so focused on romance not only did very little else, but they put their agency in another person who didn't actually even exist. Ivana, Gabrielle, and Jacqueline twit around being petty and angry because they can't get a date and then destroy other people's relationships out of jealous spite. It literally doesn't matter that they are magically cursed to their loveless misery; it's still the same dull plot found in probably at half of every TV show or movie set in a high school.

We just disagree here. I do not share your view of these characters that they "twit around being petty and angry because they can't get a date and then destroy other people's relationships out of jealous spite." I've explained why. If you are not persuaded, it is fine. We can disagree. But I think my view on it isn't that outrageous here. I tried to highlight some of the substance I felt you were overlooking in your critique. But at the end fo the day, you find the characters compelling or you don't

 

[Bedrockgames]

If you do reddit, look at subs like nothowgirlswork, menwritingwomen, and pointlesslygendered. Those beliefs are still prevalent. Sexism, and the belief that women capital-N need men and babies, is still alive, even among the younger people.

I don't do reddit, and I don't trust online platforms where people often troll, form themselves into echo chambers, or go to because people in real life won't take their views as seriously, as a good reflection of what people think. I am not saying these things don't exist. I think that discussion is beyond the scope of this forum (since we are not supposed to talk about real world political issues). My point was simply that the 90s was not the 50s in that respect.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, the male Darklords may not have particularly deep backgrounds and motivations, but at least they mostly have different ones.

I think we are placing different value on having a variety of goals. For me, especially when you have one or two designers working on a game or book, I expect to see similar themes repeated. And I it really is more about is each character compelling to me, not if I divide these characters up and assess their motivations how varied are they. There is value int he later. I just don't think it is the most important thing when it comes to assessing quality or having a reaction to media. At least for me. And when it comes to Ravenloft specifically, I think the more successful lords, again for me, were the ones who leaned into romantic themes, themes of family, etc. Obviously there are exception. I really liked Harkon Lukas (and I think a female domain lord in that style would have been cool: though honestly I often saw Gabrielle Aderre as similar in many ways----at least in terms of the type of figure she was in the domain).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Doubtful, or more of the men would be completely centered around their need for love. As it is, there's one: Dominic. Strahd may pine after Tatyana, but it's not what defines him in the same way the need for love defines Gabrielle, Jacqueline, and Ivana.

I don't think it is doubtful. Again, we don't know why they put these themes with the female characters, and a handful of the male characters. But there could have been personal reasons one or both of the designers wanted the female characters to have these kinds of themes (again I don't know, I just know that when I write or design, it is a very personal form of expression and often things from your own youth and development as a person make their way into the content). Just as an example of what I mean, someone who lost a sibling in childbirth when they were young might write a lot of characters that deal with women losing children or babies, or wanting them. It doesn't mean that person is trying to reinforce sexist tropes. It means the person is grappling with something personal through these kinds of themes.

I would say Strahd is very much defined by his love for Tatyana. He has other things going on, but as I pointed out, so does Gabrielle Aderre and Ivana Boritsi. Tatyana is his overriding goal. I mean that is the character. You can go a bit deeper, I mean she obviously represents his lost youth in a way, and there is something about his vanity in there (but that sort of thing is true with the female characters too). Soth is also defined by his love for Kitiara. Adam is similar I think in that he is bound up in a lot of these kinds of themes. He is defined by his relationship with Victor and his desire for Elise (and Victor is defined by his desire to be a mother in effect). Dilisnya is defined largely by his jealousy of his sister. But importantly, I don't think any of these characters are intended to be saying something about what men and women ought to be. They are, I think, mostly just meant to be entertaining and reflect the genre.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Gabrielle Adierre could be focused on her parentage denying her a place in Vistani society. Her loneliness tied to her "family" shunning her and her taking it out on all Vistani and wanderers into her realm.

But this is already the case. If you look at her entry it is clear she isn't simply lonely because of the issues surrounding her father and the warning her mother gave her. Being denied her identity by the Vistani is pretty central to who she is as a character, and has nothing to do with not having a child. This is also why she hates the vistani. Her hatred is complicated. It can't just be reduced to wanting a baby and a man. And I think the particulars of her curse regarding the baby makes her exceptionally important to the plot of Ravenloft (even if the story we got for it was kind of lame in the end). Being an outcast has a lot more to do with her identity than a lack of domestic life IMO (though she clearly has desires for a normal life, which I think ground her and work, especially given how stark and over the top her overall story and personality are):

 

[Voadam]

Gabrielle Aderre

She is a part Vistani enchantress who was cursed that if she had a man, babe, or home it would end in tragedy. She grew up in desperate circumstances with her outcast part Vistani mom bitter and scraping by stealing, fortune telling, and entertaining and eventually mastering Vistani charm and evil eye magic herself.

The man and babe thing is a curse on her, but it is not her personalized darklord curse. Her top hate is for the Vistani that cast her family out. Her darklord curse is that she cannot affect them at all and get her vengeance on them.

She is an enchantress archetype villain, she has elements of the woman denied love story, but her central thing at heart seems to be she is an outcast part Vistani who hates Vistani.

Realms of Terror page 89:

At 19, Isabella finally escaped from her master's bonds. She was pregnant, and gave birth to Gabrielle in Richemulot. They traveled alone, barely surviving by begging, stealing, telling fortunes, and entertaining. Isabella taught her daughter the gypsy charms and enchantments, just as her own mother, Gabrielle's grandmother, had done for her. Isabella did not reveal the identity of Gabrielle's father, and forbade her daughter to speak of him. She would say only that he was evil, and that Gabrielle carried the evil inside her. "You must never bear children," said Isabella to her daughter. "A man, a babe, a home—these things can never be for you, Gabrielle, because tragedy will be the only result." Gabrielle grew up bitter, despising the gypsies and the folk who made her an outcast, and eventually even her mother, who had ensured her eternal loneliness.
When Gabrielle was 19, her mother was killed by a werewolf in Arkandale. Gabrielle fled into the Mists of Ravenloft. She was full of hate and plans of vengeance. The dark powers of the land opened their arms and took her in. As her hatred grew, they increased her strength, until she achieved the power to become a lord.
Today, Gabrielle is lord of Invidia. (She seized control of the land from its former lord, a werewolf who attempted to enslave her.) She is an intense, persuasive, and charismatic woman. She despises the gypsies, but since she cannot harm them directly (see below), she often tries to manipulate others into doing so. She is not fond of the natives in her domain, and is jealous of any happiness they manage to find. One of her few pleasures is toying with these innocent folk, destroying attachments, ruining families, and undercutting any person of social stature.

and page 90

Full-blooded gypsies are completely immune to her powers and spells. She can never wreak the vengeance she seeks; that is her curse.