D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Bedrockgames]

You can apparently respond to just part of what I wrote at a time, which means you are either quoting individual sections or you are deleting everything other than that one issue. In either case, it means you are capable of breaking up text into smaller chunks.

Please try harder. Hint: If you quote a section, then it vanishes from your quote clipboard and you can quote a later section with ease.

what I have said to people who have complained about this, is this is how I post. I understand some people don't like it. You can ignore my posts if it is a very big issue. But I have two reasons for doing this: one is formatting (editing out a paragraph so I can focus on the ones I want to address is one thing, plugging in a bunch of quoted boxes, I have a much harder time with ), but the second is I just find it easier to focus on one thing at a time. Some people prefer the intermixed boxes of quotes, I find that confusing and unfocused, and I just don't think that way. I prefer to isolate points and address them. I am not trying to be annoying. This is just the way I make posts.

 

[Faolyn]

The desire for power and control is negative, destructive, and pretty much sums up what is wrong with humanity.

Which for Darklords is fine, because they're supposed to be villains.

And an appallingly sexist stereotype when applied to men.

So why not give it to the female Darklords?

It's appallingly sexist to make them all have the stereotype of "must have a man and/or baby," so why not give them a different stereotype? After all, they're arch villains; it's OK for them to be cliché, so have them be different types of cliché.

Calling it "romance" is to belittle it. The desire to have a family is constructive, and essential to the survival of the human race, just as the desire for power and control is inimical to the survival of the human race.

And we're not talking about constructive desires. We're talking about how female Darklords are limited to "is evil because she can't have a man" or "hates all men, therefore is evil."

A male Darklord whose only motivation is "evil because he can't get a woman" would be incredibly boring, which is why they gave Dominic--who was evil long before he was old enough to realize that girls were all nice and pretty and stuff--a country that he actively manipulates, an archfoe with the same shtick he's trying to outmaneuver, and a political day job he actually performs in addition to falling in love easily.

A male Darklord whose only motivation is "hates all women, therefore is evil," would be incredibly boring and probably would be written out of canon quickly. In fact, Duke Gundar, who was basically an evil vampire whose entire shtick was that he forced people to pay an exorbitant tax every time a baby girl was born, was killed off in the Grand Conjunction. (Ish; he became a skeleton, regrew his flesh, and apparently now wanders the land as a bestial, amnesiac vampire.)

It should be noted that, canonically, now that Gabrielle has Matton in her life, "she is less jealous of the happiness of others and no longer takes as much pleasure in toying with innocent folk." Once she got a man, she stopped being so awful. See what I mean?

If it is to become less sexist, Ravenloft needs to stop trying to be 19th Century Gothic.

What it needs to become less sexist is to give the female Darklords another motivation beyond one revolving around men or babies.

There are lots of domains that are pure fantasy, not based on any 19th-century novel: Keening, Vechor, G'Henna, Sithicus, Staunton Bluffs. And more if you allow for domains that are based around real-life events but not Gothic tropes: Falkonia, Tepest, Nidala, Souragne, Borca. You may or may not like them as domains, but it's proof that they were never limited to old novels.

Or perhaps it would have been better just to let the setting die.

What's sad is that you would have the entire setting die rather than just give a little bit of thought as to how female Darklords could be a bit more interesting.

 

[Faolyn]

No you are not understanding the Aderre character, she hates the vistani because they don't accept her as one of them. She was rejected by the people of Ravenloft and by the Vistani, thus she is an outcast. A lot of it is complicated and bound up together, but read the entry. It is clear this isn't just about her not being able to have a baby and it isn't just because she is blaming the vistani for her mother 'denying her love'. It is the whole package of her background.

I just reread her background in the Black Box, Domains of Dread and Gazetteer IV. In none of them does it even hint that she or her mother ever tried to join back up with the Vistani. Her mother was only "outcast" because she had been captured and sold as a sex slave, not because she had personally done something terrible--unless the Vistani were evil enough to throw someone out for the crime of being raped. I doubt TSR thought to do that.

Gabrielle can have children. She's had two. Her personal curse, given to her, presumably, by fate itself, is that any man or child of hers will bring her tragedy. And that might not even be a real curse; it could just have been her mother being bitter over being impregnated by rape.

I am not assuming bad faith on your part. I don't see why you would assume it on mine.

Then I have to assume that you're just blind to the casual sexism women face on a day-to-day basis, particularly that from the media.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I just reread her background in the Black Box, Domains of Dread and Gazetteer IV. In none of them does it even hint that she or her mother ever tried to join back up with the Vistani. Her mother was only "outcast" because she had been captured and sold as a sex slave, not because she had personally done something terrible--unless the Vistani were evil enough to throw someone out for the crime of being raped. I doubt TSR thought to do that.

Gabrielle can have children. She's had two. Her personal curse, given to her, presumably, by fate itself, is that any man or child of hers will bring her tragedy. And that might not even be a real curse; it could just have been her mother being bitter over being impregnated by rape.

I didn’t say she tried to rejoin. I said she was rejected by them. It says in her entry she isn’t accepted by the vistani despite having a bloodline that extends to Madame Eva. Her mother was not outcast because she was captured, she was captured because she was outcast for not being pure vistani (both Gabrielle and her mother are not pure vistani). This is the source of her anger at the vistsni. The reason her mother told her not to have a child, wasn’t as a result of a gypsy curse it’s because gabrielle’s father was an evil man (heavily implied to be clad Drakov). She can have a baby, but she shouldn’t because it’s likely to be very evil. Her curse is complicated but the curse stated in her entry in the black box is she can’t harm vistani (despite wanting to). I am typing on phone so can’t review entry to precisely talk about any other curse she may be under but in her combat entry it states that is her curse. I am not going by the gazetteer, as that was put out by white wolf and I never felt it matched the line. So I probably agree with a lot of your criticisms of the content in that

 

[Bedrockgames]

I just reread her background in the Black Box, Domains of Dread and Gazetteer IV. In none of them does it even hint that she or her mother ever tried to join back up with the Vistani. Her mother was only "outcast" because she had been captured and sold as a sex slave, not because she had personally done something terrible--unless the Vistani were evil enough to throw someone out for the crime of being raped. I doubt TSR thought to do that.

Gabrielle can have children. She's had two. Her personal curse, given to her, presumably, by fate itself, is that any man or child of hers will bring her tragedy. And that might not even be a real curse; it could just have been her mother being bitter over being impregnated by rape.

I didn’t say she tried to rejoin. I said she was rejected by them. It says in her entry she isn’t accepted by the vistani despite having a bloodline that extends to Madame Eva. Her mother was not outcast because she was captured, she was captured because she was outcast for not being pure vistani (both Gabrielle and her mother are not pure vistani). This is the source of her anger at the vistsni. The reason her mother told her not to have a child, wasn’t as a result of a gypsy curse it’s because gabrielle’s father was an evil man (heavily implied to be clad Drakov). She can have a baby, but she shouldn’t because it’s likely to be very evil. Her curse is complicated but the curse stated in her entry in the black box is she can’t harm vistani (despite wanting to). I am typing on phone so can’t review entry to precisely talk about any other curse she may be under but in her combat entry it states that is her curse. I am not going by the gazetteer, as that was put out by white wolf and I never felt it matched the line. So I probably agree with a lot of your criticisms of the content in that

 

[Bedrockgames]

Then I have to assume that you're just blind to the casual sexism women face on a day-to-day basis, particularly that from the media.

please stop accusing me of things. I am not. I can disagree with you about media tropes though. That doesn’t make me a bad person or blind.

 

[tetrasodium]

I just reread her background in the Black Box, Domains of Dread and Gazetteer IV. In none of them does it even hint that she or her mother ever tried to join back up with the Vistani. Her mother was only "outcast" because she had been captured and sold as a sex slave, not because she had personally done something terrible--unless the Vistani were evil enough to throw someone out for the crime of being raped. I doubt TSR thought to do that.

It's extremely common throughout history & still happens in some parts of the world today.
If you're shocked by a woman being arrested after reporting gang-rape in Dubai, you should know how common these cases are

Spoiler

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Hiding these kinds of things, pretending they don't happen, & suggesting that the victims don't have enough cause for anger would be whitewashing the dark side of humanity. What happened is horrible, it's supposed to be horrible. Gabrille Aderre was able to obtain the power of an enchantress with enchantment magic that makes her scary to those who would say that sort of exile/jailing is for the best of society.

Gabrielle can have children. She's had two. Her personal curse, given to her, presumably, by fate itself, is that any man or child of hers will bring her tragedy. And that might not even be a real curse; it could just have been her mother being bitter over being impregnated by rape.

The whole never bear children or it will bring disaster to them & those around her has a side that I think you are skipping past. She can't simply leave ravenloft & once you understand some of the cultures that would engage in the sort of behavior present in the exile it doesn't take much of a leap to realize that the children would be punished by those who feel wronged by her or they would be so insulated from the consequences of their learned cruelty that they would truly be monsters.

Then I have to assume that you're just blind to the casual sexism women face on a day-to-day basis, particularly that from the media.

Gabrielle Aderre & her mother suffered from far more than mere "casual sexism" as victims of deeply rooted systemic cultural sexism likely present for generations upon generations upon generations even with ravenloft's penchant for strange historical timelines that often seem fabricated to outsiders.

 

[Bedrockgames]

So why not give it to the female Darklords?

That is a motivation both male and female darklords ought to be able to have in my opinion. Just like having a female character who is condemned to turn into a rat in the presence of someone she loves, isn't a commentary on women needing men, a male darklord who wants power isn't a commentary on masculinity and a female darklord who wants power isn't a commentary on felinity (they both can be commentaries, but they often are not)

 

[Bedrockgames]

The desire for power and control is negative, destructive, and pretty much sums up what is wrong with humanity.

And an appallingly sexist stereotype when applied to men.

I don't think having a character seek power is particularly sexist for either male or female characters. Like I said I think you guys are both reading way too much into the politics behind these kinds of choices. The choices are made to make for good horror, and if you take 'wants power' off the table, you are taking a fairly important and basic motivation out of the toolbox.

I agree with you, the pursuit of power in real life can be very negative and destructive. But that is why it should be reflected in art and in fictional worlds. It is a real thing that exists, I would expect to see people in a fictional setting motivated by the desire for power. I think it is best done when it is layered in with other things. Like in the case of Jacqueline Renier, where the desire for power is clearly there (after all she was trained by her father to rule, then murdered him and took over the domain), but she has a lot more going on.

 

[Faolyn]

@tetrasodium, I'm a woman. You don't need to explain sexism to me.