D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Faolyn]

please stop accusing me of things. I am not. I can disagree with you about media tropes though. That doesn’t make me a bad person or blind.

How about this, then: you don't seem to understand or accept that certain historically sexist tropes are used in a sexist manner in this game, because it appears that you find the end results compelling.

 

[Bedrockgames]

How about this, then: you don't seem to understand or accept that certain historically sexist tropes are used in a sexist manner in this game, because it appears that you find the end results compelling.

I think you are mischaracterizing what I am saying

 

[tetrasodium]

@tetrasodium, I'm a woman. You don't need to explain sexism to me.

You have a laser like focus on one specific interpretation of a few details that ignores any & all evidence to alternate interpretations to say nothing of the insinuations that keep popping up..... Would that I could.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Which for Darklords is fine, because they're supposed to be villains.

It' also boring. And it isn't a feature of the Gothic genre that Ravenloft is supposed to represent.

So why not give it to the female Darklords?/

I'm sure there will be more female darklords, and I'm sure some of them will be scenery chewing megalomaniacs, because that is easiest to write, and no one is arguing against it. I just don't think the addition of more boring characters of any gender is progress.

It's appallingly sexist to make them all have the stereotype of "must have a man and/or baby," so why not give them a different stereotype?

This is it. You aren't arguing for new female villains (which we all know we are getting), you are arguing for the removal of one you don't approve of.

And by implication you appear to be saying women shouldn't want romance or a family. That these are not valid goals for women.

There are lots of domains that are pure fantasy, not based on any 19th-century novel: Keening, Vechor, G'Henna, Sithicus, Staunton Bluffs. And more if you allow for domains that are based around real-life events but not Gothic tropes: Falkonia, Tepest, Nidala, Souragne, Borca. You may or may not like them as domains, but it's proof that they were never limited to old novels.

There are. But there are also many more that are based on 19th century literature, and therefore have settings that represent 19th century ideas of gender roles.

What's sad is that you would have the entire setting die rather than just give a little bit of thought as to how female Darklords could be a bit more interesting.

This is getting into Ship of Theseus territory. Ravenloft was created to be the Gothic Horror campaign setting. If you remove the gothic, is it still Ravenloft?

 

[Remathilis]

If it is to become less sexist, Ravenloft needs to stop trying to be 19th Century Gothic.

Or perhaps it would have been better just to let the setting die.

So if you can't have the setting as you want it, you want nobody to have it?

How very Darklord of you...

 

[Bedrockgames]

So if you can't have the setting as you want it, you want nobody to have it?

How very Darklord of you...

The mods should be able to give us powers checks just for this thread

 

[Faolyn]

You have a laser like focus on one specific interpretation of a few details that ignores any & all evidence to alternate interpretations to say nothing of the insinuations that keep popping up..... Would that I could.

...I said that TSR likely didn't want to go so far as to have an NPC punished for being raped and you decided to link me a whole article saying it still happens in the real world.

This isn't "alternate interpretations." This is you trying to overexplain something that had nothing to do with the topic at hand (which is: a game written during 90s) as if I wasn't aware of things that occurred and continue to occur in the real world.

Knock it off. I don't need you mansplaining sexism to me.

 

[Faolyn]

It' also boring. And it isn't a feature of the Gothic genre that Ravenloft is supposed to represent.

It's not at all boring, because the Darklords who want power or control or knowledge are also engaged in activities that the PCs can also engage in. The PCs can try to stop the DL, can try to help the DL, can try to gain the power/control/knowledge first, can try to negotiate with the DL about it, and more.

The Darklords who want to ruin other people's relationships because they can't have one themselves are the boring ones, because that's all background stuff. It's not something that can be used as a plot, unless you want to screw over any PCs that are in a relationship.

This is it. You aren't arguing for new female villains (which we all know we are getting), you are arguing for the removal of one you don't approve of.

And by implication you appear to be saying women shouldn't want romance or a family. That these are not valid goals for women.

Wow, did you deliberately misread everything I've ever written or what?

Give the female villains something other than only a desire for a man or baby. If Ivana, Jacqueline, and Gabrielle still desperately want a man, fine. But they can also be actively engaging in other pursuits at the same time.

Are you seriously against the idea of these women having something to do with their lives other than pine?

This is getting into Ship of Theseus territory. Ravenloft was created to be the Gothic Horror campaign setting. If you remove the gothic, is it still Ravenloft?

Women with non-domestic goals does not equal non-Gothic horror. Especially since the romance associated with Gothic Horror doesn't even actually mean love; it comes from novel, meaning "book written in a romance (Latin-derived) language." A book for the masses to read (i.e., not a scholarly or religious text), and as a genre, Gothic literature influenced even pulp novels and comics in the 20th century. It's a very broad category of fiction.

Gothic Horror is about the dark, primal emotions, the morbid aesthetics, and the people involved having unwanted destinies and karmic fates. You can get that with a female darklord with a non-romantic background!

And none of that prevents you from running plots that don't involve the Darklords, which for me at least is something like 99% of all of my RL adventures.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It's not at all boring, because the Darklords who want power or control or knowledge are also engaged in activities that the PCs can also engage in. /

It's boring because it makes the villain like every other villain ever. If you want to Ravenloft to be Forgotten Realms 2.0 - now with added Grimdark, then sure, make all the darklords cackling megalomaniacs.

The Darklords who want to ruin other people's relationships because they can't have one themselves are the boring ones, because that's all background stuff. It's not something that can be used as a plot, unless you want to screw over any PCs that are in a relationship./

That's the area a Ravenloft plot needs to go in to make it distinct from a GenericFantasyland plot. Obviously you run it by your players first.

Wow, did you deliberately misread everything I've ever written or what?

Give the female villains something other than only a desire for a man or baby. If Ivana, Jacqueline, and Gabrielle still desperately want a man, fine. But they can also be actively engaging in other pursuits at the same time.

Are you seriously against the idea of these women having something to do with their lives other than pine?/

Pining is pretty much what dark lords (male and female) are supposed to be doing. It's emo-land.

Women with non-domestic goals does not equal non-Gothic horror. Especially since the romance associated with Gothic Horror doesn't even actually mean love; it comes from novel, meaning "book written in a romance (Latin-derived) language." A book for the masses to read (i.e., not a scholarly or religious text), and as a genre, Gothic literature influenced even pulp novels and comics in the 20th century. It's a very broad category of fiction.

Gothic Horror is about the dark, primal emotions, the morbid aesthetics, and the people involved having unwanted destinies and karmic fates. You can get that with a female darklord with a non-romantic background!/

And emotions don't get any more primal than love/lust.

And none of that prevents you from running plots that don't involve the Darklords, which for me at least is something like 99% of all of my RL adventures.

Indeed, getting away from the darklords with regards to story is a good thing. Which it's why its better for them to be sitting in their castles pining away rather than doing the same thing villains do every night - plot to take over the world.

 

[Voadam]

Give the female villains something other than only a desire for a man or baby. If Ivana, Jacqueline, and Gabrielle still desperately want a man, fine. But they can also be actively engaging in other pursuits at the same time.

Like if Gabrielle were motivated by hate for Vistani say? Charming people to send or act against them?

Or if the hags were motivated by sabotaging anything nice others have or might get (including their sisters)?

Jaqueline in the Realms of Terror book has very little description. From page 111:

Jacqueline was a dark, shining star, schooled well by her evil father. In 726, she murdered him and took control of the domain.

and

Current Sketch: Jacqueline is domineering, manipulative, and mean. She revels in her animal nature. Rats, when in season, are lusty creatures; so is Jacqueline. Her curse in Ravenloft is to automatically revert to a ratman form when confronting anyone she loves. Normally, this would not affect her; wererats usually do not form bonds of love and marriage. But it also has been Jacqueline's curse to fall in love. She is enamored of a human male named Henri Du-Bois. Since her last unsuccessful attempt to make him her wererat slave, his whereabouts are unknown.

The bolded parts seem to be non pining for a man aspects though.

Ivana does not have an individual darklord entry so there is even less on her, but from the Borca entry on page 66:

Ivana wrested control of Borca from her mother Camille in 716. Like her mother before her, Ivana is known for her excesses. She owns Borca. Everyone else simply rents.

Her soldiers are literally rent collectors.

Most Borcans are poor. The aristocracy has taxed them into abject poverty.

The contrast of ruler excesses and abject taxed poverty can be a hook to use for villainy themes besides Black Widow.