D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Faolyn]

Just a reminder that I was responding to your desire for a female villain with something other than only a desire for a man or a baby. So primary versus secondary ranking of other motivations seems a different point.

The main reason Gabrielle hates the Vistani is because they made her a lonely outcast.

But it's OK, because she stops being so evil when she falls in love with Matton!

The original Realms of Terror write up I quoted earlier seems to place Aderre's Vistani hate higher and does not mention the age stuff. The Red box description seems the same as well, what source are you going off of?

That was Domains of Dread (2e). "However, her reflection always reveals her true age. For this reason, Gabrielle allows no mirrors near her." The Gazetteer mentions that she's an attractive older woman, but she still hates her reflection.

Darklords where the hags are first described in any detail does not have it as limited to women who are prettier. "The hags hate folk who are good, despise folk who are beautiful or handsome, and are jealous of anyone who is happy and loved."

Right. This is the typical stereotype of the ugly women: they hate and try to destroy anyone who is better than they are.

Renier's write up has her cursed with love. I don't think it says she is actively looking to find it, just that she was cursed with it.

Cursed to fall in love, unlike any of her species.

In the Gazetteer, she fell in love with a human nobleman named Henri DuBois. She tried to infect him with lycanthropy and he vanished in the attempt. "His whereabouts remain a mystery, leaving Jacqueline mired in heartache that only abates when she revels in the misery of others."

Her primary motivation from the Realms of Terror write up is fairly open ended because of the lack of detail. Finding love would be consistent with the write up, but so would other primary motivations.

And yet only (failing at) finding love and being horrible to people because she can't are the only motivations given.

 

[Voadam]

In the Gazetteer, she fell in love with a human nobleman named Henri DuBois. She tried to infect him with lycanthropy and he vanished in the attempt. "His whereabouts remain a mystery, leaving Jacqueline mired in heartache that only abates when she revels in the misery of others."

The Dubois angle was in 2e but that last bit seems to be a 3.5 gazetteer addition. The 2e descriptions do not say that her heartache leads her to revel in other's misery. She is just "domineering, manipulative, and mean, reveling in her animal nature."

 

[Faolyn]

The Dubois angle was in 2e but that last bit seems to be a 3.5 gazetteer addition. The 2e descriptions do not say that her heartache leads her to revel in other's misery. She is just "domineering, manipulative, and mean, reveling in her animal nature."

In DoD, she also goes out of her way to kill her sister's lovers out of pure jealousy.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I can't believe there is defense of this line:

Her curse in Ravenloft is to automatically revert to a ratman form when confronting anyone she loves. Normally, this would not affect her; wererats usually do not form bonds of love and marriage. But it also has been Jacqueline's curse to fall in love.

Jacqueline's species doesn't form emotional attachments to others, but her unique curse is to basically want that female domestic role. They literally cursed her with wanting a man. This is like saying a mind-flayer doesn't have genitals, but Xuth the mind-flayer was cursed not only with a impressive set of nards, but to be kicked in them daily. Couldn't they think of a better curse for a female ratlord than "I have a crush on every boy!"?

I really don’t see a problem with it and I think you are projecting ‘domestic role’ on her. She is the most powerful person in Richemulot. She is ruthless and cunning. Falling in love doesn’t mean she suddenly turns into a house wife. It is meant to be a weakness as well since it isn’t typical for were rats. And giving her a curse that she will fall in love but always revert to her rat form in her love’s presence gives her a desire that is relatable (again she is a bit like phantom of the opera). There is nothing wrong with a male or female character wanting love. You are pathololagizing something that is a perfectly good horror trope, gives her character emotional weight and adds complexity to her motivations (also the GM is free to take this in any number of directions).

not saying folks have to like it. Maybe you find it full. I honestly found it to be a great entry in a boxed set that was to my mind a masterpiece of game design and writing. I think it is fair to criticize. But it is a little shady to always frame these criticisms in terms of them being icky, or sone kind of moral transgression. I just think people are reading est too much into this stuff and throwing away perfectly good tropes because they could be read a certain way (and I don’t think the reading if the tropes here is accurate: most if the critiques honestly feel a little like schoolyard insults (the I Have a crush on everyone clip for example). It isn’t a way to persuade, it is a way to Shame people into agreeing with you about whether the content of a fantasy world is well written or not. People can like this stuff. It doesn’t make them sexist and it doesn’t make the writing lazy

 

[Faolyn]

I can't believe there is defense of this line:

Her curse in Ravenloft is to automatically revert to a ratman form when confronting anyone she loves. Normally, this would not affect her; wererats usually do not form bonds of love and marriage. But it also has been Jacqueline's curse to fall in love.

Jacqueline's species doesn't form emotional attachments to others, but her unique curse is to basically want that female domestic role. They literally cursed her with wanting a man. This is like saying a mind-flayer doesn't have genitals, but Xuth the mind-flayer was cursed not only with a impressive set of nards, but to be kicked in them daily. Couldn't they think of a better curse for a female ratlord than "I have a crush on every boy!"?

If you thought the mansplaining was bad, the complete lack of understanding about sexism in this thread is worse.

Now I feel sorry for Xuth.

 

[humble minion]

The best Darklords have their curse specifically related to the evil deeds they committed to draw the notice of the Dark Powers in the first place. Strahd's fall was driven entirely by his desire for Tatyana - now he's cursed to see Tatyana return again and again and never possess her. Ankhtepot sought to defy death as the eternal ruler over a mighty empire - and his curse was to be a shambling dead thing while the nation he ruled crumbled into a dusty forgotten ruin. Soth's sins were related to his impulsiveness and his eagerness to forget his duty and oaths when his personal desires came along - and his curse is to live forever in a place where the memory of HIM is all wrong, and for a guy with his pride that eats like acid. Even Vlad Drakov's curse is at least apt - he was a brutal military leader who committed atrocity in the name of conquest, and now his curse is that he's doomed to be defeated in any war he wages.

That is, I think, why curses like Jacqueline's grate on me. There's nothing poetic or ironic there. Her curse is utterly unrelated to her history (although the history of why Richulemot formed from the mists is a bit fuzzy, and she annexed it from Claude anyway). She's a murderous treacherous horrible person, but her sins are crimes of ambition rather than passion, why did the whole romance aspect get introduced when it came down to constructing her curse? Hazlik, on the other hand, was entirely motivated by desire - but his curse is nightmares? Where's HIS love-related curse? If Jacqueline's moment of damnation was when she tried to turn duBois into a wererat, then sure, her curse would be appropriate. But a) it wasn't, she became the Darklord after killing her father, and b) then we'd have yet another love-related female Darklord.

There's plenty of Darklords whose curses are nonsensical or unsuited to their history, and plenty of male Darklords whose family were collateral damage on their path to damnation (or who got fridged, if you prefer that terminology). But it does seem to be mostly the women who get the romantic or family aspect shoehorned in, no matter whether it's significant to their personality or history.

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. Please rewrite.

Ok... Look at it this way Strahd, Haslik Gabrielle, etc are mostly all somewhere between figurehead, actual ruler, or former ruler of their domains. Every single one of them has some obsession they can't let go of that keeps them from focusing on turning their respective domains into wonderful places & the Dark Powers twist the screws just enough to keep those dark lords distracted from making their domains awesome places by teasing at their obsessions..

Take the Haslan trying to build a road around the necropolis example that came up earlier in the thread(?). It could be done & they could probably even take care of that whole necropolis eyesore if hazlik would just stop focusing all of his efforts & spare resources on arcane research towards letting him escape ravenloft. If the players take it upon themselves to build that road they can't lean on the darklord for support. In one of my campaigns the players built a lightningrail in barovia but strahd was off playing Pepe Le Pew chasing after Tatianaso they had to self fund in a domain without the treasury to support it. Eventually they used the output of that mine they got running to supply some stranded cannith artificers & magewrights with the resources needed to build a lightningrail line. The players couldn't rely on strahd to bullypulpit the individual villages for them & the villagers knew it... so the players eventually had to clear out & help restart a hot spring as well as a winery to give that lightning rail some reason to run . Strahd's typical involvements were well meaning, distracted, & more than once made things worse because he didn't care about his relationship with the PCs. Jacqueline would be just as easy as she doesn't really care much about Richemulot so much as getting whatever NPC her heart is set on to love her back so now the PCs need to juggle both her and the target of her heart if they wanted to accomplish something like that lightning rail/mine/etc. No PC needs to e targeted by the darklord for an obsessed darklord to be a wrench in the gears.

 

[Faolyn]

This...

Jacqueline would be just as easy as she doesn't really care much about Richemulot so much as getting whatever NPC her heart is set on to love her back

...doesn't lead to this.

so now the PCs need to juggle both her and the target of her heart if they wanted to accomplish something like that lightning rail/mine/etc. No PC needs to e targeted by the darklord for an obsessed darklord to be a wrench in the gears.

If Jacqueline loves some NPC, that has nothing to do with the PCs trying to build a lightning rail. No PC can make an NPC love Jacqueline back, so that's off the table and it seems extremely unlikely that her desire for an NPC would actually interfere with a PC's plans. If that NPC was integral to the PC's desire to build a railroad, having her fall in love with him would actually be a boon, because she's so politically powerful she could get the NPC whatever funds he needs in an effort to woo him.

Now, if the PC and the NPC were in a romantic relationship, that might be a thing, but so far I've never had that sort of relationship come up. And it would be so obnoxious--"she wants your boyfriend and is gonna do bad things to you if she doesn't get him"--that I wouldn't want to run that plot anyway.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The best Darklords have their curse specifically related to the evil deeds they committed to draw the notice of the Dark Powers in the first place. Strahd's fall was driven entirely by his desire for Tatyana - now he's cursed to see Tatyana return again and again and never possess her. Ankhtepot sought to defy death as the eternal ruler over a mighty empire - and his curse was to be a shambling dead thing while the nation he ruled crumbled into a dusty forgotten ruin. Soth's sins were related to his impulsiveness and his eagerness to forget his duty and oaths when his personal desires came along - and his curse is to live forever in a place where the memory of HIM is all wrong, and for a guy with his pride that eats like acid. Even Vlad Drakov's curse is at least apt - he was a brutal military leader who committed atrocity in the name of conquest, and now his curse is that he's doomed to be defeated in any war he wages.

That is, I think, why curses like Jacqueline's grate on me. There's nothing poetic or ironic there. Her curse is utterly unrelated to her history (although the history of why Richulemot formed from the mists is a bit fuzzy, and she annexed it from Claude anyway). She's a murderous treacherous horrible person, but her sins are crimes of ambition rather than passion, why did the whole romance aspect get introduced when it came down to constructing her curse? Hazlik, on the other hand, was entirely motivated by desire - but his curse is nightmares? Where's HIS love-related curse? If Jacqueline's moment of damnation was when she tried to turn duBois into a wererat, then sure, her curse would be appropriate. But a) it wasn't, she became the Darklord after killing her father, and b) then we'd have yet another love-related female Darklord.

There's plenty of Darklords whose curses are nonsensical or unsuited to their history, and plenty of male Darklords whose family were collateral damage on their path to damnation (or who got fridged, if you prefer that terminology). But it does seem to be mostly the women who get the romantic or family aspect shoehorned in, no matter whether it's significant to their personality or history.

Jacqueline is the only one that is like this as far as I can tell. Gabrielle Aderre's curse fits her background pretty well, and all the components tie together. Ivana Boritsi doesn't seem particularly shoehorned, nor the hags, nor Tristessa. I think in Jacqueline's case it still works in terms of the NPC being interesting. Many of the lords have curses that are perfectly tailored to their background but not all do. As a GM I took this to mean, you generally want to strive for that, but sometimes you just need a cool interesting character, whether the background lends itself to the curse or not (which is also helpful when you are handing out powers checks so you are not always under pressure to make it fit perfectly with the evil action----generally I tried to, but I liked not feeling like I always had to).

 

[Bedrockgames]

This...


...doesn't lead to this.

If Jacqueline loves some NPC, that has nothing to do with the PCs trying to build a lightning rail. No PC can make an NPC love Jacqueline back, so that's off the table and it seems extremely unlikely that her desire for an NPC would actually interfere with a PC's plans. If that NPC was integral to the PC's desire to build a railroad, having her fall in love with him would actually be a boon, because she's so politically powerful she could get the NPC whatever funds he needs in an effort to woo him.

Now, if the PC and the NPC were in a romantic relationship, that might be a thing, but so far I've never had that sort of relationship come up. And it would be so obnoxious--"she wants your boyfriend and is gonna do bad things to you if she doesn't get him"--that I wouldn't want to run that plot anyway.

She doesn't fall in love with everyone who crosses her path. She is fated to fall in love, and when we meet her in the black box, she is infatuated with a man named Henri Dubois. I personally didn't like having darklords be direct enemies or opponents for PCs. Once in a while was okay. My approach was to have the players help rescue and bring Henri to safety as an adventure, with Jacqueline's minions tracking them down across Ravenloft.