D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Faolyn]

* One of my last ideas about Ravenloft is some times Dark Powers lose dread domains, because the dark lord dies and the "heir" is too nobleheart, willing for self-sacrifice and even the martyrdom. Then the domain "escape", goes to other zone in the middle between Astral Sea and Shadowfell, and here the Dark Powers can taint and cause some troubles but direct controll is totally lost.

Should the DL die with no "heirs," the land itself would most likely just get absorbed into another domain with similar features (like how Gundarak got annexed into Barovia and Invidia), or simply disintegrate into the Mists.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Maybe this will help me, because I am unaware of what actually constitutes what you call the classic horror subgenre. Is it just older stories and films? Far as my study and experience with horror stories, classic is not one of the typical subgenres. And to me classic could mean something different to a teenager.

What I mean is Ravenloft clearly laid out a framework of gothic+classic horror. And I think classic horror is somewhat malleable, but the important thing is it is not modern: it draws from silent horror movies, black and white, and hammer films. And generally older movies based on classic monsters (i.e. it is a vampire, mummy and werewolf setting, not an atomic bug or the Thing setting). It isn’t Interview with the vampire, it isn’t Hellraiser, it isn’t friday the 13th, etc. The way I would put it is that Ravenloft is more of a blank and white setting (in the sense that it is more inspired by classic black and white films, than it is by 80s or 90s films). If you read the black box it is constantly contrasting itself with modern horror. I would say it is generally not venturing much past the early 1970s, and when it dies it cleaves more to stuff in the classic mold (I.e. the howling rather than Halloween).

and again I do like all those other genres. But I think Ravenloft really shines more when it is more focused

 

[Bedrockgames]

You may not intend to insult people, but you are. Although I don't know how you could say "it's not real Ravenloft" and think you weren't insulting people who liked it.

Which is exactly why there needs to be a clean-up of some of the domains. Because things you might think are perfectly innocent are in fact quite rude to say.

Because I am saying ‘to me, this isn’t Ravenloft’. We can disagree on what makes Ravenloft, Ravenloft, without meaning to insult one another (I disagree with my friends all the time about stuff like this)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Which is exactly why there needs to be a clean-up of some of the domains. Because things you might think are perfectly innocent are in fact quite rude to say.

We have covered this a lot do I don’t want to rehash, but this is something I have disagreed with throughout the threads. I think a lot of the criticisms are not sound and miss the purpose of why things were as they were. But again I think we have talked extensively about our respective points of view there

 

[Istbor]

What I mean is Ravenloft clearly laid out a framework of gothic+classic horror. And I think classic horror is somewhat malleable, but the important thing is it is not modern: it draws from silent horror movies, black and white, and hammer films. And generally older movies based on classic monsters (i.e. it is a vampire, mummy and werewolf setting, not an atomic bug or the Thing setting). It isn’t Interview with the vampire, it isn’t Hellraiser, it isn’t friday the 13th, etc. The way I would put it is that Ravenloft is more of a blank and white setting (in the sense that it is more inspired by classic black and white films, than it is by 80s or 90s films). If you read the black box it is constantly contrasting itself with modern horror. I would say it is generally not venturing much past the early 1979s, and when it dies it cleaves more to stuff in the classic mold (I.e. the howling rather than Halloween).

and again I do like all those other genres. But I think Ravenloft really shines more when it is more focused

Okay. I think I understand your use then. You do seem to use it to mean old or of a certain era. To me, some of the werewolf and such films fall under monster films as far as horror goes. I can be talked into classifying vampires into their own subgenre as well. Mummy for sure in broad strokes is a monster film to me whether or not it is old or a revision.

I certainly don't remember Ravenloft shining in the same manner in which you do.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Mummy for sure in broad strokes is a monster film to me whether or not it is old or a revisi

A good contrast is Vampire the Masquerade, versus Vampires in Ravenloft. Both use a classic monster: the vampire. Both take a tragic view of the vampire, but Ravenloft is more rooted in the classic and gothic approach, while Vampire the Masquerade, at the time at least, was more fresh and ‘gothy’ (taking inspiration from stuff like Anne Rice more than Stoker). Both were good in their own right but different visions. At the time I remember how cutting edge and hip vampire was, whereas Ravenloft felt a lot more old fashioned in its horror sensibilities

 

[Bedrockgames]

I certainly don't remember Ravenloft shining in the same manner in which you do.

this is going to be subjective of course, for me it shined this way. And that style is visibly reflected in the art and tone

 

[Remathilis]

@Bedrockgames , I think it's one thing to be unenthusiastic about how the setting is changing and quite another to be a polemic about it. A lot of your arguments have boiled down to "that's not part of the black box, therefore it doesn't count." It's hard to discuss changes and weaknesses of the setting because in your heart you have determined that the original presentation is free of sin and only later material has corrupted it.

Unfortunately, it's not a uncommon belief. You see it with people who argue the 84 Greyhawk folio was Gygax's true vision before it was corrupted by the From the Ashes box. Or Dragonlance beyond the Dragons of Summer Flame. Outside of gaming, I've interacted with people who refuse to accept any Star Wars movies beyond 1983 as legitimate, including the 97 special editions. Or Doctor Who fans who don't accept anything beyond the original run that ended in 89. (The legitimacy of McGann's 8th and Ecccleston's 9th Doctors were rejected for years following the revivals).

At a certain point, it stops being worth it to try to defend the small, "pure" original vision. As you said, you become outnumbered. Feel free to discuss the setting and disagree, but I think the notion that Ravenloft should not change or that the changes are illegitimate or a betrayal is a losing one.

Nobody wants to end up being diaglo arguing that "OD&D (1974) is the only true version of D&D; all others editions are pale imitations of the original."

 

[Bedrockgames]

@Bedrockgames , I think it's one thing to be unenthusiastic about how the setting is changing and quite another to be a polemic about it. A lot of your arguments have boiled down to "that's not part of the black box, therefore it doesn't count." It's hard to discuss changes and weaknesses of the setting because in your heart you have determined that the original presentation is free of sin and only later material has corrupted it.

I am not saying the original is free from sin. I am saying TSR Ravenloft had a vision that made sense to me. The blending all horror together seems to go against what made it do great. People can disagree but trying paint me as sone kind of regressive stuck in 1974 because I prefer Ravenloft take the classic feel to what WOTC has decided, I think is just a way to dismiss a valid point of view. Not every I’ve I’d going to like what hasbro does with the line. I may be outnumbered on this thread. That doesn’t mean there aren’t people here and elsewhere who agree with me.

 

[Istbor]

@Bedrockgames
Unfortunately, it's not a uncommon belief. You see it with people who argue the 84 Greyhawk folio was Gygax's true vision before it was corrupted by the From the Ashes box. Or Dragonlance beyond the Dragons of Summer Flame. Outside of gaming, I've interacted with people who refuse to accept any Star Wars movies beyond 1983 as legitimate, including the 97 special editions. Or Doctor Who fans who don't accept anything beyond the original run that ended in 89. (The legitimacy of McGann's 8th and Ecccleston's 9th Doctors were rejected for years following the revivals).

I try my best to be open to change, especially in things that I love.

However, Han shot first!

 

[Faolyn]

What I mean is Ravenloft clearly laid out a framework of gothic+classic horror. And I think classic horror is somewhat malleable, but the important thing is it is not modern: it draws from silent horror movies, black and white, and hammer films.

And the Dark Shadows TV show from the 60s...

And generally older movies based on classic monsters (i.e. it is a vampire, mummy and werewolf setting, not an atomic bug or the Thing setting).

Although they had the doppelganger plant, which is clearly from Invasion of the Body Snatchers (and they only "appear after some omen of doom, such as a meteor shower" (which makes no sense when you remember that the Domains aren't on a planet), and reavers, which are very much Creatures From The Black Lagoon. The gremishka (which are in the Black Box), which are clearly an homage to Gremlins. All those evil doll movies are pretty darn modern, and RL has doll golems as a result. The viruses from RL MCIII were much more clearly based on modern SF horror than anything gothic or classic. And those vampyres seem very Interview With a Vampire to me, what with their nightclubs and wearing sunglasses at night and all. And those are just the references I get.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And the Dark Shadows TV show from the 60s...

I am not sure on that one but it is still much more in the classic mold (there were lots of TVs shows from that era inspired by classic horror monsters)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Although they had the doppelganger plant, which is clearly from Invasion of the Body Snatchers (and they only "appear after some omen of doom, such as a meteor shower" (which makes no sense when you remember that the Domains aren't on a planet), and reavers, which are very much Creatures From The Black Lagoon. The gremishka (which are in the Black Box), which are clearly an homage to Gremlins. All those evil doll movies are pretty darn modern, and RL has doll golems as a result. The viruses from RL MCIII were much more clearly based on modern SF horror than anything gothic or classic. And those vampyres seem very Interview With a Vampire to me, what with their nightclubs and wearing sunglasses at night and all. And those are just the references I get.

Sure and you can blend that stuff in in a classic way. But the dolls, to me came off as puppet master like: which if you watch it is more classic horror IMO than say chucky (and I like chucky: just wouldn’t put him in Ravenloft). Plus there is gothic literature that touches on that kind of horror (not a huge leap from Hoffman’s Automaton to animate dolls). Gremlins is Joe Dante, who also did the howling. I would put his stuff more in the classic mold even though it can’t put in the 80s (gremlins to me fit the classic monster style). And gremlins themselves are an old trope (the point of the old man’s story about gremlins in airplanes was to connect them to that idea: there is a twilight episode about a gremlin for example). That stuff wasn’t what the writer of black box was arguing against: the black box is against heavy nude of gore, high body counts over subtle building of terror. It is about taking a more patient approach to horror. On the vampyre front: there is no doubt in my mind Ravenloft at times started emulating the masquerade and that always felt off to me (I just didn’t see Ravenloft as very goth club oriented like vampire was). Though I will point out those sunglasses might have been inspired by Gary Old man’s portrayal of Dracula rather than clubbing vampires (don’t remember what year Vampyres were introduced)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Unfortunately, it's not a uncommon belief. You see it with people who argue the 84 Greyhawk folio was Gygax's true vision before it was corrupted by the From the Ashes box. Or Dragonlance beyond the Dragons of Summer Flame. Outside of gaming, I've interacted with people who refuse to accept any Star Wars movies beyond 1983 as legitimate, including the 97 special editions. Or Doctor Who fans who don't accept anything beyond the original run that ended in 89. (The legitimacy of McGann's 8th and Ecccleston's 9th Doctors were rejected for years following the revivals).

I think it is more like saying the original star wars trilogy was better than the prequels (which is a sound point of view: people like the prequels but in terms of film quality, the original trilogy I would say is leagues better: classics for a reason). We don't have to agree on art and games. I wasn't trying to be polemical (if it sounded polemical it is because I was responding to a poster who was taking an extremely hostile tone to my posts)

 

[Faolyn]

Sure and you can blend that stuff in in a classic way. But the dolls, to me came off as puppet master like:

They have carrionettes for that. And the art in MMI for the Doll Golem is totally Chucky. I'd bet anything if Toy Story had come out before Ravenloft did, there would be more of a generic Toy Golem and the illustrations would be based on Sid's toys.

which if you watch it is more classic horror IMO than say chucky (and I like chucky: just wouldn’t put him in Ravenloft). Plus there is gothic literature that touches on that kind of horror (not a huge leap from Hoffman’s Automaton to animate dolls). Gremlins is Joe Dante, who also did the howling. I would put his stuff more in the classic mold even though it can’t put in the 80s (gremlins to me fit the classic monster style). And gremlins themselves are an old trope (the point of the old man’s story about gremlins in airplanes was to connect them to that idea: there is a twilight episode about a gremlin for example).

Yes, I've seen that one. Those gremlins are the ones invented in the 20s, the ones who destroy machinery. The gremlins of the movie Gremlins are clearly of a different type, and the gremishka are much more clearly related to Mogwai's evil kin then they are to the big galoot that drove Shatner insane.

Spoiler: Images, Spoilered for Size

Gremlin from Twilight Zone.

Gremlins on WWII propaganda poster.

Gremlin from the movie Gremlins.

Ravenloft's gremishka.

Hmmm.

It sounds to me that you define "classic horror" as "anything non-slasher, unless it doesn't 'feel right' to me, in which case it's not classic."

On the vampyre front: there is no doubt in my mind Ravenloft at times started emulating the masquerade and that always felt off to me (I just didn’t see Ravenloft as very goth club oriented like vampire was). Though I will point out those sunglasses might have been inspired by Gary Old man’s portrayal of Dracula rather than clubbing vampires (don’t remember what year Vampyres were introduced)

Vampyres are from the very first Ravenloft MC. You know, the one published only one year after the black box and before VtM came out (Amazon lists MC10 as coming out May '91, and VtM 1e as Jan '92).

It looks like you simply dismiss whatever it is you don't like as being "influenced" by something not properly gothic, instead of actually admitting that Ravenloft has never been limited to only gothic horror, but instead has always drawn from a variety of sources.

We get it. You prefer only gothic in your gothic horror. But mixing in other types of horror doesn't ruin or dilute Ravenloft one bit; it just makes it more varied and interesting.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Yes, I've seen that one. Those gremlins are the ones invented in the 20s, the ones who destroy machinery. The gremlins of the movie Gremlins are clearly of a different type, and the gremishka are much more clearly related to Mogwai's evil kin then they are to the big galoot that drove Shatner insane.

But the point is they are based on the same basic concept (the gremlins in the movie wreak havoc by messing with machinery like traffic lights, vehicles, electric chairs, etc)

 

[Istbor]

Sure and you can blend that stuff in in a classic way. But the dolls, to me came off as puppet master like: which if you watch it is more classic horror IMO than say chucky (and I like chucky: just wouldn’t put him in Ravenloft). Plus there is gothic literature that touches on that kind of horror (not a huge leap from Hoffman’s Automaton to animate dolls). Gremlins is Joe Dante, who also did the howling. I would put his stuff more in the classic mold even though it can’t put in the 80s (gremlins to me fit the classic monster style). And gremlins themselves are an old trope (the point of the old man’s story about gremlins in airplanes was to connect them to that idea: there is a twilight episode about a gremlin for example). That stuff wasn’t what the writer of black box was arguing against: the black box is against heavy nude of gore, high body counts over subtle building of terror. It is about taking a more patient approach to horror. On the vampyre front: there is no doubt in my mind Ravenloft at times started emulating the masquerade and that always felt off to me (I just didn’t see Ravenloft as very goth club oriented like vampire was). Though I will point out those sunglasses might have been inspired by Gary Old man’s portrayal of Dracula rather than clubbing vampires (don’t remember what year Vampyres were introduced)

What!?! Puppet Master? Now we are right back to me being confused about this 'classic' horror subgenre.

I'm also not buying that all of Ravenloft has been the slow patient horror, and can think of a few campaigns I was in where there was a pretty high body count, or some heavy body horror.

Can't we just all have Ravenloft, and let it be the place for horror in D&D? I feel like we are going to start doing horror film/story gymnastics trying to make things fit into one or possibly two subgenres.

 

[Bedrockgames]

They have carrionettes for that. And the art in MMI for the Doll Golem is totally Chucky. I'd bet anything if Toy Story had come out before Ravenloft did, there would be more of a generic Toy Golem and the illustrations would be based on Sid's toys.

I really don't think they would have gone toy story. There were doll horror movies and puppet horror moves prior to the 80s. I do agree the doll golem looked like Chucky. The Carrionettes were based on Pinocchio of all things. Again, you can blend genres. Fairtales and classic stories blended with gothic seemed to work pretty well for Ravenloft. But I think blending in Toy Story would have felt very strange at the time.

 

[Istbor]

They have carrionettes for that. And the art in MMI for the Doll Golem is totally Chucky. I'd bet anything if Toy Story had come out before Ravenloft did, there would be more of a generic Toy Golem and the illustrations would be based on Sid's toys.


Yes, I've seen that one. Those gremlins are the ones invented in the 20s, the ones who destroy machinery. The gremlins of the movie Gremlins are clearly of a different type, and the gremishka are much more clearly related to Mogwai's evil kin then they are to the big galoot that drove Shatner insane.

Spoiler: Images, Spoilered for Size

View attachment 135839
Gremlin from Twilight Zone.

View attachment 135840
Gremlins on WWII propaganda poster.

View attachment 135841
Gremlin from the movie Gremlins.

View attachment 135842
Ravenloft's gremishka.

Hmmm.

It sounds to me that you define "classic horror" as "anything non-slasher, unless it doesn't 'feel right' to me, in which case it's not classic."


Vampyres are from the very first Ravenloft MC. You know, the one published only one year after the black box and before VtM came out (Amazon lists MC10 as coming out May '91, and VtM 1e as Jan '92).

It looks like you simply dismiss whatever it is you don't like as being "influenced" by something not properly gothic, instead of actually admitting that Ravenloft has never been limited to only gothic horror, but instead has always drawn from a variety of sources.

We get it. You prefer only gothic in your gothic horror. But mixing in other types of horror doesn't ruin or dilute Ravenloft one bit; it just makes it more varied and interesting.

Ah yes, the Twilight Zone Gremlin. Honestly, he looks pretty huggable to me.

 

[Bedrockgames]

What!?! Puppet Master? Now we are right back to me being confused about this 'classic' horror subgenre.

My point was just that puppet master has a kind of classic vibe to it. It doesn't feel like Friday the 13th to me. It definitely has cheesy 80s stuff and more gore than you would have in Ravenloft. But it is pretty atmospheric, has a solid backstory and a real classic kind of location and plot.