D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Bedrockgames]

Like you, I don't find all the tropes of gothic horror innately wrong, but the presentation of them could use some freshening up. And a few new ideas like zombie apocalypse or illusion masquerade will freshen up the dustier or repetitive areas.

I have no issue with freshening up. I do think I would disagree with a lot of posters about how best to go about freshening them up though. And zombie is something Ravenloft already incorporated (Night of the Walking Dead for example). I think you can blend other genres in. The issue is the core of it needs to be gothic or its all just superficial blending. The blending should compliment the core concept, not fight with it or distract from it (or blur the setting).

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean. That is fine, for then. A majority of people playing then had seen and experienced gothic horror, or classic horror in the normal pace of consuming media. With a widening selection of horror amongst a throng of genre's, where the current trend doesn't seem to be Gothic horror, this probably won't be the case. Yeah. There will be some younger people out there that found Gothic horror and love it, and many who are aware of it at least. Inspired and wanted to D&D in that particular horror genre? Unlikely.

Something to keep in mind: most of us didn't know much about Gothic horror either when Ravenloft came out. I knew classic horror movies. I wasn't familiar with gothic horror stories because I hadn't read them yet. Ravenloft was the thing that prompted me to read Frankenstein, to read Le Fanu, etc. A good setting can expose people to a new genre and get them interested in it enough that they become familiar. Are horror fans so different today? No one's heard of Frankenstein or Dracula? When Ravenloft came out: gothic horror instead of fantasy horror was a tough sell. But that is what made the line (at least IMO). People are always complaining about how D&D should be more experimental and shouldn't be so tied to old fantasy tropes. Well, Ravenloft is part of a series of settings that exploded in the 90s that did just that (Dark Sun is another great example: something that was well outside what we thought of as standard D&D). Dark Fantasy D&D is about the most boring direction you could take Ravenloft IMO

 

[Istbor]

Then you missed the heart of what I was saying (and I only opened with that because the post I was responding to was frankly quite insulting to me)

Then you know how it feels like.

 

[Istbor]

They can do whatever they like. My point is at a certain stage you are no longer rooted in gothic and classic horror. I don't know where they are going with it, but I was responding to points in this thread about where they ought to be going and what they ought to be eliminating. My only point was: the heart of Ravenloft is this notion of going back to the source material, and of rejecting more modern forms of horror (doesn't mean modern horror is bad, I like modern horror), but the challenge it presented to the reader was try the classic stuff and adhere to that tone, see what the result is. It is an entirely different kind of atmosphere.

Sure. I am 100% A-OK with there being some realms that are Gothic or classic horror (which honestly, I dislike that term. Asking different people will no doubt give you different results of classic horror). Though I think there should be a multitude of different feels in all of Ravenloft, not just Gothic.

 

[Faolyn]

But why even call it Ravenloft at that point? I am not saying you can't have a setting that is all kinds of horror.

Because why shouldn't it be called Ravenloft?

You may not like blending different horror tropes together, but that doesn't invalidate the setting as a whole. And RL has always had different types of horror mixed in. Barovia may be Dracula, Nova Vaasa may be Jekyll and Hyde, and Lamordia may be Frankenstein, but lots of other domains had nothing to do with classic horror.

Go by the Black Box: Bleutspur, Falkovnia, Invidia, Kartakass, Borca and Dorvinia, Verbrek and Arkandale, Richemulot, Dementlieu, Valachan... none of these are really Gothic. Neither are any of the Islands, with the probably exception of Staunton Bluffs--which I always read as being the Dark Shadows domain (meaning it's based on a soap opera, not a classic novel or movie).

You might not like anything past the Black Box but you can't pretend it doesn't exist and then insist everyone else follow by that set only and that Ravenloft can't ever change. Once the setting started to expand, they got further and further away from pure Gothic horror. You don't even have to go to the weird other-setting domains like Kalidnay for that--Nidala is "standard" fantasy and isn't Gothic either.

Ravenloft is horror, period. It doesn't have to be only Gothic horror. Stop trying to gatekeep it.

 

[Istbor]

Something to keep in mind: most of us didn't know much about Gothic horror either when Ravenloft came out. I knew classic horror movies. I wasn't familiar with gothic horror stories because I hadn't read them yet. Ravenloft was the thing that prompted me to read Frankenstein, to read Le Fanu, etc. A good setting can expose people to a new genre and get them interested in it enough that they become familiar. Are horror fans so different today? No one's heard of Frankenstein or Dracula? When Ravenloft came out: gothic horror instead of fantasy horror was a tough sell. But that is what made the line (at least IMO). People are always complaining about how D&D should be more experimental and shouldn't be so tied to old fantasy tropes. Well, Ravenloft is part of a series of settings that exploded in the 90s that did just that (Dark Sun is another great example: something that was well outside what we thought of as standard D&D). Dark Fantasy D&D is about the most boring direction you could take Ravenloft IMO

And that is your opinion. Dark Fantasy to me is totally interesting, and probably where I would enjoy most of my campaigns and adventures taking place in.

Have the Gothic. Have the stuff that is clearly some other references to older, and newer horror stories/films. Have the Dark Fantasy. Ravenloft doesn't have to mean Gothic horror D&D. It can mean Horror D&D, and bring in a wider crowd.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Because why shouldn't it be called Ravenloft?

You may not like blending different horror tropes together, but that doesn't invalidate the setting as a whole. And RL has always had different types of horror mixed in. Barovia may be Dracula, Nova Vaasa may be Jekyll and Hyde, and Lamordia may be Frankenstein, but lots of other domains had nothing to do with classic horror.

Go by the Black Box: Bleutspur, Falkovnia, Invidia, Kartakass, Borca and Dorvinia, Verbrek and Arkandale, Richemulot, Dementlieu, Valachan... none of these are really Gothic. Neither are any of the Islands, with the probably exception of Staunton Bluffs--which I always read as being the Dark Shadows domain (meaning it's based on a soap opera, not a classic novel or movie).

You might not like anything past the Black Box but you can't pretend it doesn't exist and then insist everyone else follow by that set only and that Ravenloft can't ever change. Once the setting started to expand, they got further and further away from pure Gothic horror. You don't even have to go to the weird other-setting domains like Kalidnay for that--Nidala is "standard" fantasy and isn't Gothic either.

Ravenloft is horror, period. It doesn't have to be only Gothic horror. Stop trying to gatekeep it.

But those are all based on either gothic horror or classic horror movies (usually themselves based on gothic). I would argue Nidala isn't standard fantasy. It is more in line with stuff like the Witchfinder General (and similarly styled hammer movies). Richemulot is very gothic. Arkandale, Verbrek, Kartakass are all classic werewolf.

Ravenloft was never broad horror. Because even when it is drawing on broader material it was filtered through that classic and subtle approach. That was the central idea of the line from the start. I would argue it managed to mostly retain that through the TSR era (by the WW era it definitely lost it).

I am not gatekeeping. I am giving my opinion. Clearly my view is outnumbered. It isn't like my opinion is shaping the line anymore. But I am free to give it. Stop equating disagreement with gatekeeping

 

[Bedrockgames]

Have the Gothic. Have the stuff that is clearly some other references to older, and newer horror stories/films. Have the Dark Fantasy. Ravenloft doesn't have to mean Gothic horror D&D. It can mean Horror D&D, and bring in a wider crowd.

I just think it is going to lose its flavor if it does that. Again I like lots of horror. I am not denigrating other styles of horror. but I think a focused setting, especially when it comes to one like Ravenloft, is a vastly better choice here than a grab bag of horror subgenres.

 

[Bedrockgames]

You might not like anything past the Black Box but you can't pretend it doesn't exist

'
I like plenty of the material past the black box (I bought every single book all the way up through the d20 era). I just prefer black box and I think it is fair to bring up the core concepts the black box laid out (which even books like DoD, even thought they take a different approach in terms of how much fantasy to blend in, still try to adhere to). My view is there are two very good iterations of Ravenloft: Black Box and DoD. And those basically represent the two major camps. There are people who stuck with it through the d20 era. I continued playing using that material. But for me, it clearly lost its identity as a line when it shifted to white wolf (it is just so far removed from what I think made Ravenloft good).

All That said, I completely understand this new version is not catering to me. I also understand, given there are three different old fan bases (black box, DoD, and d20) they can't cater to all three at the same time, if they even wanted to. But I can advocate for what I think makes the setting work. And I would maintain the stuff laid out in the black box is what I think truly worked about the setting. For me, perhaps not for you or for others, going the dark fantasy, broad horror approach, just waters the flavor down too much

 

[Faolyn]

I think this is a giant miscalculation. My guess is they are underestimating the intelligence and discernment of younger gamers and only listening to the most vocal and intense critics.

OR they are choosing to use the types of horror that are currently popular.

I saw the emblem of the eyes that @darjr posted and immediately associated it with the Beholding from The Magnus Archives, even after reading all the new stuff about Hazlan (and for all I know, they took that idea from TMA).

 

[Istbor]

I just think it is going to lose its flavor if it does that. Again I like lots of horror. I am not denigrating other styles of horror. but I think a focused setting, especially when it comes to one like Ravenloft, is a vastly better choice here than a grab bag of horror subgenres.

See? I never saw Ravenloft as focused. It always looked to me as mish-mosh of different horror movies stories. From the outset of our use of the 'setting' we just picked whichever realm we wanted to play in at the time, and that was it. Either we resolved whatever story (usually in some tragic way) or we accomplished some task and were whisked back to our homes by the mists.

 

[Faolyn]

'
I like plenty of the material past the black box (I bought every single book all the way up through the d20 era). I just prefer black box and I think it is fair to bring up the core concepts the black box laid out (which even books like DoD, even thought they take a different approach in terms of how much fantasy to blend in, still try to adhere to). My view is there are two very good iterations of Ravenloft: Black Box and DoD. And those basically represent the two major camps. There are people who stuck with it through the d20 era. I continued playing using that material. But for me, it clearly lost its identity as a line when it shifted to white wolf (it is just so far removed from what I think made Ravenloft good).

Your view seems to be: I like what I like, and people who like otherwise aren't playing "real Ravenloft" but something that's "watered down." It's deeply insulting to those people who enjoy the later materials as much as or even more than the Black Box.

All That said, I completely understand this new version is not catering to me. I also understand, given there are three different old fan bases (black box, DoD, and d20) they can't cater to all three at the same time, if they even wanted to.

They certainly can. I like all three versions myself. I take the bits I like from each of them and discard the rest. I imagine that lots of other people who like Ravenloft do the exact same thing.

 

[Bedrockgames]

OR they are choosing to use the types of horror that are currently popular.

I saw the emblem of the eyes that @darjr posted and immediately associated it with the Beholding from The Magnus Archives, even after reading all the new stuff about Hazlan (and for all I know, they took that idea from TMA).

I understand what they are doing. But my point is 1) I am not obligated to express enthusiasm about the choice to do that and 2) that choice is completely the opposite of what Ravenloft was meant to be (if anything Vampire was the game that embraced contrmporary horror)

 

[Bedrockgames]

See? I never saw Ravenloft as focused. It always looked to me as mish-mosh of different horror movies stories. From the outset of our use of the 'setting' we just picked whichever realm we wanted to play in at the time, and that was it. Either we resolved whatever story (usually in some tragic way) or we accomplished some task and were whisked back to our homes by the mists.

I would say it was a mish-mash of classic and gothic horror

 

[Bedrockgames]

Your view seems to be: I like what I like, and people who like otherwise aren't playing "real Ravenloft" but something that's "watered down." It's deeply insulting to those people who enjoy the later materials as much as or even more than the Black Box.

I am not insulting you: we don’t have to like the same stuff and we can be honest about what we dislike. I liked Ravenloft all through the TSR era (except for the end when it was clear they were having massive budget issues). I feel the black box was exceptional in terms of laying out a concept, a philosophy and it’s presentation. After TSR, Ravenloft felt too modern and too white wolf for my tastes (which went against all the original reasons I was initially attracted to Ravenloft). You can disagree. Gamers can have different opinions about a game line, and be honest, without it being personal or without thinking that difference makes someone a bad person. But I don’t have to like whatever WOTC puts out

 

[Bedrockgames]

Either we resolved whatever story (usually in some tragic way) or we accomplished some task and were whisked back to our homes by the mists.

I always ran complete campaigns in Ravenloft (years long campaigns). I book ended it with weekend in hell (the party was drawn in from elsewhere, was trying to escape) but would adventure there for a full campaign (generally monster of the week style)

 

[Faolyn]

But those are all based on either gothic horror or classic horror movies (usually themselves based on gothic). I would argue Nidala isn't standard fantasy. It is more in line with stuff like the Witchfinder General (and similarly styled hammer movies). Richemulot is very gothic.

Since when is the French Revolution or Soviet spies Gothic? Since when are mind flayers Gothic?

Arkandale, Verbrek, Kartakass are all classic werewolf.

I've seen a fair number of classic werewolf movies. They're not particularly Gothic. Most of them are as slasher-y as they could get away with at the time and with the FX budget they had.

Ravenloft was never broad horror. Because even when it is drawing on broader material it was filtered through that classic and subtle approach. That was the central idea of the line from the start. I would argue it managed to mostly retain that through the TSR era (by the WW era it definitely lost it).

And I'd say they brought it back. Gothic horror is about personal emotions, and I think the more evocative writing style of the S&S era played on those emotions a lot more than the TSR books that weren't written in first-person POV like the Van Richten's Guides.

I am not gatekeeping. I am giving my opinion. Clearly my view is outnumbered. It isn't like my opinion is shaping the line anymore. But I am free to give it. Stop equating disagreement with gatekeeping

You are gatekeeping. You're very clearly stating that Pure Ravenloft has a narrow Gothic focus and anything else isn't Pure Ravenloft.

I understand what they are doing. But my point is 1) I am not obligated to express enthusiasm about the choice to do that and 2) that choice is completely the opposite of what Ravenloft was meant to be (if anything Vampire was the game that embraced contrmporary horror)

No, you're not required to express enthusiasm, but Ravenloft wasn't "meant" to be a single type of horror. If it were, it would have only contained a tiny handful of domains that clearly played on Gothic tropes.

 

[Istbor]

I would say it was a mish-mash of classic and gothic horror

Maybe this will help me, because I am unaware of what actually constitutes what you call the classic horror subgenre. Is it just older stories and films? Far as my study and experience with horror stories, classic is not one of the typical subgenres. And to me classic could mean something different to a teenager.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

The "specialite of the house" is not going to be stopped but other plates with different recipes are going to be served also. Here the strategy is "don't put all the eggs in one basket". And there are enough space to allow Lovecraftian/cosmic horror, even we could use PC races from Eberron. The thaani, refugees from Bluetspur, could be as the khalastar.

The 2nd Ed had got a piece of body horror, the dark lord dr Fransiket Markov.

I show this Extreme Ghostbuster episode as example of "kid-friendly" body horror.


* One of my last ideas about Ravenloft is some times Dark Powers lose dread domains, because the dark lord dies and the "heir" is too nobleheart, willing for self-sacrifice and even the martyrdom. Then the domain "escape", goes to other zone in the middle between Astral Sea and Shadowfell, and here the Dark Powers can taint and cause some troubles but direct controll is totally lost. Then the trick is to use infiltrated to create secret lodges who conspirate against the "previous (oppresive) regime". Other "penance domains" weren't created by the Dark Lords, but demiplanes or demiplanes created from other places (someones with modern technology) and "almost fished" by the Dark-Lords. Here good wins, but a sweetbitter victory, almost pyrrhic, or they die, but their sacrifice they save their souls, and that is the ultimate victory.

* We should be careful about new players who believe Ravenloft is only a grimmdark hack and slash as Blizzard's Diablo.

 

[Faolyn]

I am not insulting you: we don’t have to like the same stuff and we can be honest about what we dislike. I liked Ravenloft all through the TSR era (except for the end when it was clear they were having massive budget issues). I feel the black box was exceptional in terms of laying out a concept, a philosophy and it’s presentation. After TSR, Ravenloft felt too modern and too white wolf for my tastes (which went against all the original reasons I was initially attracted to Ravenloft). You can disagree. Gamers can have different opinions about a game line, and be honest, without it being personal or without thinking that difference makes someone a bad person. But I don’t have to like whatever WOTC puts out

You may not intend to insult people, but you are. Although I don't know how you could say "it's not real Ravenloft" and think you weren't insulting people who liked it.

Which is exactly why there needs to be a clean-up of some of the domains. Because things you might think are perfectly innocent are in fact quite rude to say.