D&D 5E AoE spells: Do you play by RAW or RAI?

[Flamestrike]

That sounds like exactly the sort of thing houserules exist to fix.

Its exactly the sort of thing people try and fix with houserules when it didnt need fixing, and the fixer simply doesnt understand the rules in any event.

 

[Lanefan]

Its exactly the sort of thing people try and fix with houserules when it didnt need fixing, and the fixer simply doesnt understand the rules in any event.

Being able to drag someone in and out of an AoE such that the victim takes the "on entry" damage multiple times in a round is just the sort of cheesy rules exploit that any worthwhile DM is, on learning of it, going to find a way of ruling out of existence; particularly if whoever's inside the AoE doing the dragging-in only has to take that damage once in the round.

 

[Flamestrike]

Being able to drag someone in and out of an AoE such that the victim takes the "on entry" damage multiple times in a round is just the sort of cheesy rules exploit that any worthwhile DM is, on learning of it, going to find a way of ruling out of existence;

No its not.

 

[Li Shenron]

An issue with area of effect spells keeps coming up in our campaign and I'm wondering how many people play by rules as intended:

"Our design intent for such spells is this: a creature enters the area of effect when the creature passes into it. Creating the area of effect on the creature or moving it onto the creature doesn’t count. If the creature is still in the area at the start of its turn, it is subjected to the area’s effect."

So a spell like moonbeam, cloudkill, or spiritual guardians doesn't do damage when cast over a creature. So you might not do any damage the first round you cast it depending what you roll for initiative.

I've never seen it played that way in any of the three campaigns I've played in or in about six months of weekly Adventurers League play with numerous DMs. So I'm curious if anybody actually plays that way?

Where the heck did you find that rai for persistent effects?

It is both RAW and RAI: "When a creature enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it is engulfed in ghostly flames that cause searing pain, and it must make a Constitution saving throw..." (Moonbeam)

I have seen this particular spell many times, and our current Druid uses it often. In the majority of cases, "or starts its turn there" is enough to make sure that they DO get damage at least once. It doesn't happen on the caster's turn, it happens on the target's turn, but it still happens most of the times. There is a possibility to avoid it, if for example an ally of the target casts an appropriate protection spell on them or pushes/shoves them away from the area, but this requires the ally to spend their action doing so... since normally our PCs face evil villains and monsters, they rarely care that much for their allies. So nearly always they get damaged at least once before they can use their own turn to move away.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

While it's technically possible to exploit persistent damage zones by repeatedly moving enemies in and out of the zone, you'd need a party specifically optimized for pushing/pulling to do any more damage that way than by simply attacking. It's not like in 4e where most classes could pick powers with push/pull riders.

 

[Xetheral]

I understand that. And that principle means that one can choose any inertial frame to be viewed as being stationary and objects in other inertial frames to be moving relative to them. If all it takes for entering something is movement then you can always pick the inertial frames such that you are the one viewed as moving even when from the "traditional" inertial frame one wouldn't view oneself as moving.

Note that while you can choose any inertial frame to be viewed as stationary, the reference frame of a character that walks (or is pushed/dragged) towards a Moonbeam is not inertial. So (in any situation that might typically come up in D&D) it is possible to distinguish between a character moving into a Moonbeam and a Moonbeam being moved onto a character.

This is the same reason that the non-inertial reference frame of a rocket that accelerates towards an asteroid field by firing its engine is not interchangeable with the inertial reference frame of the asteroids. (Otherwise, it would be impossible to tell whether firing the engine caused the rocket to accelerate towards the asteroids, or whether it caused the asteroids to accelerate towards the rocket, and that ambiguity would in turn cause conservation of momentum problems in every reference frame.)

In fact it's far more realistic. Space Opera TV and movies has made us used to seeing people zapped with laser beams that act like bullets, but the reality is a laser does damage over time as it remains focused on the target. Move out of the beam quickly enough and you don't get hurt.

That is going to depend on whether the laser is pulsed, and how powerful it is in comparison to the resilience of the target. A sufficiently powerful laser with a short-enough pulse is going to affect a target very similarly to a high-energy bullet, including knocking the target backwards (with the momentum being generated by the explosive vaporization of the surface of the target, rather than being transferred from a bullet). To my understanding, most plausible high-energy laser weapons would indeed be pulsed, because with a continuous beam the vaporized target material would quickly start blocking the beam. (Then again, Moonbeam is arguably best compared to a low-energy laser.)

While it's technically possible to exploit persistent damage zones by repeatedly moving enemies in and out of the zone, you'd need a party specifically optimized for pushing/pulling to do any more damage that way than by simply attacking. It's not like in 4e where most classes could pick powers with push/pull riders.

Ironically, with enough optimization (in particular, Haste and other ways to get both on-turn and off-turn grappling/shoving) the limiting factor on how often persistent effects can damage a target each round depends on the number of combatants who get turns. In extreme cases, having familiars or uncontrolled mounts (or even more enemies!) would be useful, just to get more turns on which to deal damage.

 

[tetrasodium]

The demonstration of why "natural language" was an awful thing for 5e taking place in the discussion to answer if king Canute "entered" the water or not has the very simple problem of relevance. The blue ringed octopus, box jellyfish, brain eating amoeba, necrotizing fasciitis & many other aquatic horrors don't care which happened.

 

[tommybahama]

While it's technically possible to exploit persistent damage zones by repeatedly moving enemies in and out of the zone, you'd need a party specifically optimized for pushing/pulling to do any more damage that way than by simply attacking. It's not like in 4e where most classes could pick powers with push/pull riders.

A druid, a wizard, and a warlock with Thornwhip, Lightning Lure, and the Grasp of Hadar invocation.

 

[tetrasodium]

A druid, a wizard, and a warlock with Thornwhip, Lightning Lure, and the Grasp of Hadar invocation.

Repelling blast too. Given that warlock has been able to do it right from the get go it's almost surprising that warlocks don't get a carveout to bypass that first time that limits the other dirty peasant classes

 

[Azzy]

Sage Advice tackles this issue already:

Does moonbeam deal damage when you cast it? What about when its effect moves onto a creature?

The answer to both questions is no. Here’s some elaboration on that answer.

Some spells and other game features create an area of effect that does something when a creature enters that area for the first time on a turn or when a creature starts its turn in that area. On the turn when you cast such a spell, you’re primarily setting up hurt for your foes on later turns. Moonbeam, for example, creates a beam of light that can damage a creature who enters the beam or who starts its turn in the beam.

Here are some spells with the same timing as moonbeam for their areas of effect:

blade barrier
cloudkill
cloud of daggers
Evard’s black tentacles
forbiddance
moonbeam
sleet storm
spirit guardians

Reading the description of any of those spells, you might wonder whether a creature is considered to be entering the spell’s area of effect if the area is created on the creature’s space. And if the area of effect can be moved—as the beam of moonbeam can—does moving it into a creature’s space count as the creature entering the area? Our design intent for such spells is this: a creature enters the area of effect when the creature passes into it. Creating the area of effect on the creature or moving it onto the creature doesn’t count. If the creature is still in the area at the start of its turn, it is subjected to the area’s effect.

Entering such an area of effect needn’t be voluntary, unless a spell says otherwise. You can, therefore, hurl a creature into the area with a spell like thunderwave. We consider that clever play, not an imbalance, so hurl away! Keep in mind, however, that a creature is subjected to such an area of effect only the first time it enters the area on a turn. You can’t move a creature in and out of it to damage it over and over again on the same turn.

In summary, a spell like moonbeam affects a creature when the creature passes into the spell’s area of effect and when the creature starts its turn there. You’re essentially creating a hazard on the battlefield.