What is the point of GM's notes?

[Bedrockgames]

@Bedrockgames

I just listened to the video you linked from Justin Alexander.

Upthread I wrote a list of 4 continuums to evaluate Protagonistic Play.

I hope its clear that:

* "Festooned With Scenario Hooks" with PCs on the uptake is not high on the Protagonistic Play continuum.

* They can also "choose to 'Explore Undermountain' which they can only do if they know Undermountain exists" is not high on the Protagonistic Play continuum.

Meanwhile:

* Don't prep plot, prep situation is very high on the Protagonistic Play continuum.

This is Vincent Baker Dogs in the Vineyard 101 circa 2004 (and he said it before then); How to GM 137-138 (abridged) - Don't play the story > don't play "what's going to happen" > play the town > provoke & react.

What Justin Alexander is depicting above is Dogs in the Vineyard 101 except (I'm assuming given his system and "setting before" proclivities) without:

* the initiating scenes for the PCs (which are seminal and provide anchoring for subsequent play).

* the thematic PC build flags that constrain the GM toward what play should be about (therefore how to build setting/situation - frame 'the town' and how to play 'the town'...how to provoke the players).

* the resolution mechanics that escalate conflict, impose difficult decisions, and forcefully evolve (and advance) PCs.

* the focused premise of Dogs in the Vineyard.

i know nothing about dogs in the vineyard so can’t weigh in on that. But your billet list breakdown does not sound like what Justin is describing to me (I could be misunderstanding but a lot of that doesn’t seem like my reading of it). Either way though lots of people in the gaming community have independently arrived at similar places (I arrived at a similar place to sandbox before ever hearing the term). I can’t speak to where dogs in the vineyard is on the spectrum of styles. I think there is more going on with his hooks than meets the eye. I would frame it more as the content is made with an eye toward game ability, but you don’t know how players will sink their teeth into the hooks he is describing or which direction they will go. The synergy he describes is something that most sandbox GM’s cone to understand naturally with tone IMO. And that was just one example of sandbox advice. I included it because Justin has a distinct gaming philosophy and tends to be very precise with language and terms; as well as laying out and breaking down procedures

 

[Imaro]

No. Some approaches are antagonistic towards each other (meaning they drive to divergent play goals and do not work well with each other). This is a similar argument to System Doesn't Matter, which is really only true if you're using the same approach to play regardless of system, overwriting or ignoring the system when conflicts emerge.

You cannot have a game of Blades in the Dark as it is designed to be played if you prep it like a D&D sandbox. It just doesn't work.

I think you totally missed my point. My post isn't about having a game play out a certain way, if you want that then by all means continue to strictly define your game in terms of playstyles... My post was at a more micro level it is about techniques separated and utilized purely for a specific result. And no I'm not saying system doesn't matter... I am saying break those systems into individual techniques that are adaptable to achieve the result desired in-game by the group.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I assume you agree that "don't prep plot, prep situation" has its "Protagonistic Play Factor" amplified considerably if all of the stuff I wrote at the bottom (inherent to Dogs) is present in the game? And the inverse is true as well ("Protagonistic Play" is reduced without it).

Don’t prep plots, prep situations is pretty fundamental to most sandbox style of play. What people mean by situations will vary but there is a focus on not prepping plots in advance and instead allowing for a more adaptable character interaction driven thing to emerge through situations

again clash Boowley (who isn’t strictly sandbox at all) discussed this in his situational GMing advice which I linked earlier: Situational GMing

justin Alexander went into more detail about tgevidea he invoked in the video here: Don’t Prep Plots

 

[Bedrockgames]

Its an interesting essay. But personally, I would say the "Be water..." space has an extremely robust history in TTRPGs in all of the general use games and the "kitchen sink D&D" approach (in genre and technique).

There is definitely value in that, but there is also conceptual and realized threats there (that happen both in MMA and TTRPGs):

• Not having a well-developed, focused base/substrate to build from and rely upon when the bullets fly.
• Not having strong fundamentals in any given discipline/style because you've spread yourself thin.
• Not being able to integrate the disciplines/styles (either because you personally cannot do it...or they aren't practically/efficiently able to be integrated).

I like your essay but mostly because of the inherent danger in the message to both fighting and TTRPGing.

I don’t think martial arts will illuminate this. There are too many ways of breaking this stuff down and even martial arts experts/mma coaches-experts disagree all the time about this stuff. RPGs are a different animal anyways

 

[Imaro]

Its an interesting essay. But personally, I would say the "Be water..." space has an extremely robust history in TTRPGs in all of the general use games and the "kitchen sink D&D" approach (in genre and technique).

There is definitely value in that, but there is also conceptual and realized threats there (that happen both in MMA and TTRPGs):

• Not having a well-developed, focused base/substrate to build from and rely upon when the bullets fly.
• Not having strong fundamentals in any given discipline/style because you've spread yourself thin.
• Not being able to integrate the disciplines/styles (either because you personally cannot do it...or they aren't practically/efficiently able to be integrated).

I like your essay but mostly because of the inherent danger in the message to both fighting and TTRPGing.

But these aren't an inherent weakness in adaptability, if one is learning of the possible techniques and choosing the technique that works best for them, only replacing it when something better, or they no longer wish for it's result, they will build their foundation organically through exposure and selection.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I think you totally missed my point. My post isn't about having a game play out a certain way, if you want that then by all means continue to strictly define your game in terms of playstyles... My post was at a more micro level it is about techniques separated and utilized purely for a specific result. And no I'm not saying system doesn't matter... I am saying break those systems into individual techniques that are adaptable to achieve the result desired in-game by the group.

Techniques tend to group, though, and it's a useful shorthand to describe a usually grouped set of techniques with a convenient term, like Story Now, No Myth, and Hexcrawl. Sure, there's some bleed -- I tend to borrow some aspects of Story Now play when I'm running 5e because it works well within a skill challenge, but I really couldn't/shouldn't do this if the game I'm running is either a Hexcrawl Sandbox or a Skilled Play game. These approaches are not compatible.

 

[Imaro]

Techniques tend to group, though, and it's a useful shorthand to describe a usually grouped set of techniques with a convenient term, like Story Now, No Myth, and Hexcrawl. Sure, there's some bleed -- I tend to borrow some aspects of Story Now play when I'm running 5e because it works well within a skill challenge, but I really couldn't/shouldn't do this if the game I'm running is either a Hexcrawl Sandbox or a Skilled Play game. These approaches are not compatible.

So you're saying that you shouldn't use a technique that works well for you because... Pre-defined categorization of my game says no... this is exactly why I think approaching techniques vs styles is better. I was spurred by this because I was looking through some pre-pandemic notes I had made for running a game of D&D (It never took off because well...covid) and I realized I was using the clocks from BitD to determine when certain events would happen. It was a good technique that I adopted for D&D irregardless of what "style" this game was supposed to be.

 

[Manbearcat]

I don’t think martial arts will illuminate this. There are too many ways of breaking this stuff down and even martial arts experts/mma coaches-experts disagree all the time about this stuff. RPGs are a different animal anyways

I think I more agree with @Imaro 's take that it does illuminate though I move in the opposite direction that he does.

I would say that from first principles you can make evaluations that are testable and falsifiable. For instance, whether or not MMA coaches have reached a consensus or not is irrelevant to the fact that across the generations of MMA, the overwhelming distribution of MMA greats had a devastating grappling substrate. There can be no question (in no particular order):

Fedor
Jones
Khabib
Silva
Aldo
Couture
Henderson
GSP
Shogun
Hughes
Johnson
DC
Miocic
Gracie
Liddell

The only guys that you could make a case for out of that group is Holloway, McGregor, and Stylebender...but even those three have enormously underappreciated wrestling, clinch-game, and takedown defense.

Develop the foundation and integrate weaponry (meaning everything else works in concert, coherently synergizes...they aren't discrete things) is a first principle that absolutely translates to game design.

 

[Manbearcat]

So you're saying that you shouldn't use a technique that works well for you because... Pre-defined categorization of my game says no... this is exactly why I think approaching techniques vs styles is better. I was spurred by this because I was looking through some pre-pandemic notes I had made for running a game of D&D (It never took off because well...covid) and I realized I was using the clocks from BitD to determine when certain events would happen. It was a good technique that I adopted for D&D irregardless of what "style" this game was supposed to be.

There are techniques/tools (like Clocks) that are absolutely style-independent (they work as a framework for the Skilled Play of Moldvay Basic, they work for Story Now scene/conflict resolution like Skill Challenges, they work for Sandbox offscreen Faction resolution like in Blades).

However, there are also techniques that are absolutely style-dependent and style-anathema.

Consider our past conversations where you were certain that the implications of Fail Forward on certain forms of Skilled Play led to incoherency of play priorities. Fail Forward is fantastic for the Story Now usage of Clocks (eg 4e Skill Challenges). However, if you put Fail Forward into the Skilled Play imperatives of exploratory Dungeon Delving (therefore you MUST integrate it with the Wandering Monster/Rest Clock)...Houston...we've got a problem. The Skilled Play priority becomes perturbed, and therefore, diminished.

 

[Ovinomancer]

So you're saying that you shouldn't use a technique that works well for you because... Pre-defined categorization of my game says no... this is exactly why I think approaching techniques vs styles is better. I was spurred by this because I was looking through some pre-pandemic notes I had made for running a game of D&D (It never took off because well...covid) and I realized I was using the clocks from BitD to determine when certain events would happen. It was a good technique that I adopted for D&D irregardless of what "style" this game was supposed to be.

You might try, sometime, assuming that the other poster isn't an idiot. This would reduce how often you make statements like this in response.

I've clearly said that techniques both group naturally, and that different groups can fight against each other. If you're mixing and matching, then, yes, a technique that may work for you in one grouping will not work in another.

I am curious, though, how you're using that clock. Is it player facing, and do they understand what ticks it and what they can do to affect it? Otherwise, it's really just a countdown timer, and not actually the clock mechanic from Blades.