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What is the point of GM's notes?

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
I think I would personally differentiate between play where prep constrains play and play where the point is to figure out what the GM has prepared as a means of like basically consuming content. Exploration for its own sake rather than in service of some goal or desire on the part of their character or casual enjoyment of the GM's prepared narrative. I know the latter sort of play exists because I have played in those games. I have run those games. I would argue that it's even the norm. I am playing in such a game right now.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
And what about that could a character in that world not do? The use of authoring here in our discussion implies the player does something the character could not do.
Let's unpack this. The character never does anything at all. The character is imaginary. The player is doing everything. You can put constraints on the player's options, like acting in character, but this doesn't change this fact. And, because of this, everything a player does that results in a change in the fiction is authoring fiction. Granted, in many games, this is gated or shared authoring, but this isn't talking about if authoring fiction occurs, but rather who has what authority to author a thing. In effect, we're discussing the different authorities to author.

Your approach is that the player only has the authority to author action declarations and statements about the internal feelings and thinking of the PC. However, even this is gated, because the GM exercises veto authority over even these things, having the authority to declare an action declaration or statement about thinking to be incompatible with the GM's conception of the fiction. This means that there are many constraints on a player's ability to author fiction, but it doesn't change that what they do is author fiction.

In other games/systems/approaches, the how fiction gets authored is moved around, but it's rarely without it's own constraints. These constraints look different from your approach though.

Let's look at a classic example: Searching for a secret door. The scene is that the PC (or PCs) are fleeing from some guards, and, for whatever reason, have ended up in a dead end. Desperate, they search the dead end for a secret exit.

A) in your approach (and I'm only saying your here as a differentiator, I use this as well when I run 5e and similar games), the PCs do the search -- the player has authored this into the fiction. The resolution of the search, however, is entirely based on the GM's conception of the fiction. Normally, the GM would have determined pre-play if a secret door was present in this dead end (which was also likely determined pre-play), or would use their prep to inform their decision as to whether or not a secret door was present here. Regardless, the presence or absence of a secret door would be entire up to the GM -- that the players have searched for a secret door will have almost no bearing on it's existence in the fiction. The only thing that will happen here is that the GM will consult their conception and, if a door is present, will ask for a check to see if it is located. I'm ignoring that a GM might ask for a check even if it's not because that's not important to the point -- it's just some theatrics to further hide information from players.

B) in some other approaches, the question of a secret door is looked at differently. Since there is no pre-play determination of fiction, the question becomes 'is it possible a secret door may be here?' The answer to this is yes, unless something specific in the fiction or genre would prevent it (like it was determined in previous play that no secret door exists in this dead end). So, yes, it's possible, but we don't know yet. This would be resolved via a check. A success would reveal that a door does exist, a failure would add complication to the scene or pay off a consequence. Here, the door's a question for everyone at the table.

So, to get back to authoring, in A, the players are still authoring into the fiction the actions their PCs are taking. This is the hard limit, though, as the result of those actions is entirely up to the GM to author. In B, however, the very act of declaring the action also defines part of the solution space. So, the player is still authoring the action of their PC searching for a secret door, but also adding the potential that a secret door exists. On a success, the fact that a secret door exists can be said to be because the player authored that bit of fiction, even though it was mediated through the mechanics of the game.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
I'll be honest. I really could live without the 'living breathing world' framing. It just feels like a flex to me. I think we can talk about reactive sandboxes without using loaded language that implies consistency, a sense of permanence, and the setting feeling tangible are not features or priorities for other ways of playing roleplaying games. It's also not very descriptive of the process of play - only of how most of want it to feel in play. Including a lot of us who favor different approaches.
 


Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I prefer world in motion. It gives that sense of things happening without some of the baggage.
I'm not sure this is better. The "world" in Blades in the Dark, for instance, is in constant motion, but the motivation for that motion is different from the GM's conception of what it should be.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Time to get to some actual practical stuff. All of this assumes I am not running a game with specialized prep requirements.

I tend to favor an iterative approach to setting and character creation. Usually what I will do is come up with an initial scenario to kick stuff off. Some inciting event and enough setting information to give that event context. Then we will do a Session Zero where players create characters with a stake in the inciting event. The purpose is generally to get an idea of who the PCs are, how they are connected to each other, and to start building a supporting cast for each character.

From that point on most of prep tends to revolve on building out both the initial scenario and building circles of NPCs around the PCs. I will have more details about this process later this weekend. Time for me to get ready for work.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
@Maxperson, @Bedrockgames.

I don't really follow your replies. You say that the GM is in charge, but you also say that the players "have input" and "help shape things". But they don't have "narrative power" (whatever that means - narrative power sounds like the power to shape the fiction, so if players don't have that then I'm not sure what their input and shaping consist in, so maybe it means something else?).
It consists of their actions and roleplay. If the player says, "I take some roses from the garden and give them to the princess when I see her tonight," I'm not at liberty to say, "No you don't." I'm not at liberty to say, "Well, instead one of the guards really cut those flowers and gave them to the visiting prince who then gives them to the princess." I am constrained by what the player declares to narrate an outcome that matches what the player did. The player's input is a major factor in how the narration is shaped, so the player did in fact help shape the narration. I am forced as a DM to come up with something fair and makes sense with what the player did.
Do you agree that there is an approach to RPG play in which the GM is empowered to determine the outcomes of action resolutions based on a prior conception of the fiction (whether that is sourced in notes or imagination)?
Sure, but only where no PCs were involved. If PCs are involved, then the DM is only empowered to determine an outcome that is both based on prior conception of the fiction AND player input(actions/RP).
And do you agree that there is an approach to play in which the answer to a player's question what do I see or what do I find or what do I know about <this gameworld element the GM has just introduced> is typically provided by the GM making a decision based on his/her prior conception of the fiction, perhaps relying on a Knowledge check (or INT check or whatever the system dictates) to determine how much of his/her prior conception to share?
Sure, but those questions are generally a minority of the game. PC interaction with the environment is much more significant in my experience.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I'm not sure this is better. The "world" in Blades in the Dark, for instance, is in constant motion, but the motivation for that motion is different from the GM's conception of what it should be.
You can have a "world in motion" with very different prime movers. It might be all GM notes and random tables and whatnot, or it might be the player responsive version you get in Blades. I think both are fine goals for play and suit different needs, styles and interests. I would submit that the feeling for the players is what's at issue with a definition here, more so than how it is accomplished. YMMV, of course.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
However, I think that this is often used almost as a "mulligan" by the GM when they realize that they haven't adequately framed/telegraphed the fiction and the pertinent stakes to the players. So the "check" is meant to empower the GM to author additional fiction or scene framing. It's a bit silly, but I don't think that it's always about vetoing players.
Sometimes it's that for sure. Usually, though, the player is about to have the PC do something that would result in something bad happening to the PC, but which the player might not have thought about. If the PC has a 7 wisdom, I probably won't say anything. The PC is very unwise. If the PC has an 18 wisdom, I probably won't have the check be made. Nobody at my table has anything approaching an 18. If the PC is anywhere from 10-16, I'll give the player a roll and then just inform the player of the likely result. Sometimes the player will change his mind. Other times he will go forward. If he chooses to go forward, off we go. I'm not trying to veto anything. I'm just giving the player information that the PC would have in that situation.

Edit: If the problem was mine and I didn't describe it well enough, I would also give the information for free. No roll, no matter what the stat of the PC. I'm not going let a negative effect just happen when it's my fault for poorly describing something. If after I correct my error the player still want to proceed, then we will proceed. It's still not a veto.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
You can have a "world in motion" with very different prime movers. It might be all GM notes and random tables and whatnot, or it might be the player responsive version you get in Blades. I think both are fine goals for play and suit different needs, styles and interests. I would submit that the feeling for the players is what's at issue with a definition here, more so than how it is accomplished. YMMV, of course.
Sure, but the term "living world" was being used to describe a specific approach of heavy prep and the GM conceiving of things that occur independent of the PCs. I was pushing back against using "world in motion" as a sub for "living world" as a sub for this approach -- these phrases accurately describe a number of approaches that generate the same 'feel' in play. Which is what you're saying. I'm just trying to point out that chain of responses, such that your initial response seemed to be offering a new term to describe the heavy prep approach rather than the feel. I don't see much daylight between us, here.
 

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