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What is the point of GM's notes?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I have run sandboxes. I know how it is done.
Sure, but from the way you talk and describe the process, it doesn't seem like you've mastered that art. You know the brush strokes, but not the intangibles that bring it to life.
I don't think you have. If I missed a post could you point me to it?
I don't remember which page it was, let alone what post number. This thread has been moving faster than a pyroclastic flow.
 

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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Kevin Crawford manages to describe the process of running sandbox game with precision and without resorting to aspirational language that fails to account for the cognitive limits we all have. He also does not place sandbox gaming on pedestal or make claims about the depth of other ways of playing. Is his treatment of sandbox play in Stars Without Number or Godbound reductive?

I personally love sandbox gaming. Sine Nomine has a direct line to my wallet. I just think our analysis needs to be practical, acknowledge the process of play (and not just how it feels), and respect the limits of our cognitive powers. That last bit is a really big deal to me. I know how hard this naughty word is. We just had our Session Zero for the Infinity game I'm going to be a player in last night. Understanding the scope, relationships, and life experience of one person who is not us is damn near unfathomable to me. Implying that you can actually keep an entire world in your head is staggering. There's a lot of value in the attempt, but acting like the entire endeavor is not a massive exercise in human will is deeply misleading in my opinion.

Personally I believe that trying to maintain the mystique of what we're doing does a lot of harm to new GMs. It also discourages people to try to become GMs because the entire exercise just looks too daunting. This sort of aspirational language is why I never felt confident as a young GM until I ran Apocalypse World. It's why sandbox play was ineffable to me until I read Stars Without Number and started utilizing the process and tools Kevin Crawford provided.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
The bolded part seems untrue, since one of the hallmarks of non-prep play is that you don't prep, and without prep, a living, breathing world isn't possible, yet @pemerton seems to be saying that his non-prep play produces living, breathing worlds.
Not wanting to do something doesn't mean not knowing how to do something.

I know how to change the oil in my car, but I pay someone to do it because I don't like scraping my back on the driveway and (quite frankly) I can spare the cash to have someone else do it.

If you don't prep, you can't have things going on in the world that the player may not even know about, if you haven't thought them out and enacted them prior to play. You have to have prepared who the NPCs are in advance, what their goals are and what they are doing about it, then plot out how they go about their goals and what the approximate timeline is. Just saying, "Hey, you hear a rumor of X going on somewhere else in the world." or "You see on the news that a helicopter crashed in Indonesia." doesn't make the world a living, breathing one.
Again, the mistake you're making is thinking we're not perfectly aware of that. And again, most of us toggle between these playstyles. I just think you or Bedrockgames or Emerikol would be incapable of running a good PbtA or BitD game because you haven't tried and have some mental blinders on as to what RPGs should be like.
 

pemerton

Legend
what term do you want me to use (I haven’t read your posts as objections
I'm not really interested in a term, because the phenomenon is largely a spurious one.

All action declarations change the fiction if they are successful. Something changes. Whether that change is the orc is dead or a secret door is discovered.

The concept of "narrative power" rests on a premise that the second sort of change in the fiction is different from the first. But from the point of view of authorship they are no different. The difference consists partly in topic: the first is about the state of a living thing, the second about the details of the architecture. Because the latter but not the former is typically thought of as a setting element, the notion of "narrative power" is coined. But it rests on that thought which is particular to some specific approaches to RPGing.

What is useful is to talk about action declarations, and how they are resolved. When is the GM allowed to dictate outcomes without the players having any chance to get what they want for their PCs (eg that they find a secret door)? And when is that not the case? Answering those questions won't tell us everything about differences of approach, but it will certainly capture some key differences between (to pick two sharply contrasting RPGs) Moldvay Basic and Burning Wheel.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Personally I believe that trying to maintain the mystique of what we're doing does a lot of harm to new GMs. It also discourages people to try to become GMs because the entire exercise just looks too daunting. This sort of aspirational language is why I never felt confident as a young GM until I ran Apocalypse World. It's why sandbox play was ineffable to me until I read Stars Without Number and started utilizing the process and tools Kevin Crawford provided.
This. It's been a while since I've done a heavy prep campaign, but Worlds Without Number has inspired me to do for one of my next games.
 

I have run sandboxes. I know how it is done.

I'm pretty confident that this is also true for @Manbearcat, @Aldarc and @TwoSix. I'm not sure about @Campbell; but I imagine he has played in this sort of game even if he hasn't run it.

I don't think you have. If I missed a post could you point me to it?

@Bedrockgames has: he has referred to the GM having a mental model which is then communicated to the players.

If anyone in this thread has run more hours of Trad Sandbox play than me, I would be utterly shocked. From 84 - 04, it was exclusively either Moldvay Dungeon Delving, BECMI/RC or AD&D Sandbox or Hexcrawl.

20 years (and I’ve run plenty more in the last 17). Only GMing. No playing. Probably averaging 6 hours per week. Folks can do the math.

If I’m coming at this from a position of ignorance then the whole of D&D culture has a pretty stark purity test!
 

Instead of making assumptions you might ask. I don't know what "drama system" is. But nothing I've ever seen you post about "narrative power" has ever made any sense to me.
narrative power is a common term in sandbox circles. It usually refers to mechanics that enable players to narrate or control setting details but also refers to any mechanic intended to help the game play out more like a story. It is broad and probably fails to capture what is going on in a game like dungeon world (which I read more based on your descriptions as placing firmer limits on GM power and on formalizing into moves things that are often treated more informally. I do think narrative mechanic accurately describes hill folk, which both has mechanics for imbedding drama (characters have dramatic pokes, you map out relationships before hand and have to establish details like what you want from other characters but why they won’t give it to you). In drama system players take turns framing scenes (which grants them narrative powers a typical sandbox would reserve for the GM). There are mechanics for objecting to framing. Mostly a scene is characters talking and in the course of that dialogue you can introduce setting elements that haven’t yet been introduced (‘but Josephus, what will the myrmidons of kale do if you March south’). It is a fun game. I find it very immersive. But if I were pitching it to a sandbox GM they would certainly see those things as not belonging in a living world sandbox

my personal view is people are too rigid about narrative mechanics, I think there is a place for them in sandbox. I just think it is helpful to draw distinctions between a pure sandbox and a more experimental one. Where that leaves dungeon world or burning wheel, I don’t know because I don’t play those games. I know many sandbox GM’s are skeptical of those games.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Not wanting to do something doesn't mean not knowing how to do something.

I know how to change the oil in my car, but I pay someone to do it because I don't like scraping my back on the driveway and (quite frankly) I can spare the cash to have someone else do it.
That isn't what I said, though. He's describing his method as producing living, breathing worlds, but his method is unable to produce them. He may know how to do it, and he may want or not want to do it, but what he is describing isn't it.
Again, the mistake you're making is thinking we're not perfectly aware of that.
I'm going by what he is describing, not what I assume about what he knows. What he's describing isn't it. If he's aware of what makes a world a living, breathing one, then why is he describing something that isn't one and claiming that it is?
I just think you or Bedrockgames or Emerikol would be incapable of running a good PbtA or BitD game because you haven't tried and have some mental blinders on as to what RPGs should be like.
I don't have any conception of what RPGS "should be like." I accept that there are many ways to play them and not all of them are my cup of tea. I do know preparation is a requisite for achieving a living, breathing world, though. So claims that they are achieved in a non-prep game aren't accurate. Please note that I'm not saying that what is achieved in non-prep play isn't satisfying to those playing the game.
 

The part you're missing (and keep forgetting) is that everyone on "our" side (and it's stupid how this becomes a tribal thing that has sides) already knows how to paint.

To get away from yet another pointless metaphor, everyone here knows how to run a "living world". It's honestly one of the easier ways to play, and works well for a wider variety of players, because you need much less player buy-in. Saying "The duke you wish to talk to is a devout member of the Pumplegimp sect, which go on religious pilgrimages every spring, and this he isn't available to talk to, but you can talk to his chamberlain who's (rolls Perception) actually a member of the Asmodeus cult, because you see a carefully covered tattoo on his left wrist" isn't some spiritual moment, it's just using your notes to push the game in a certain direction.

thst isn’t living world. Living world is more about playing the chamberlain actively and responsively after he has been introduced. And it’s like, wicked spiritual man :)
 


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