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What is the point of GM's notes?

pemerton

Legend
there are lots of people who play RPGs for fun and who would look at this thread and shake their heads at the lot of us. If it's working for your group, great, everything else is gravy and not everyone needs or wants to know how the sausage is made. So, that said, lets get back to talking about how we make sausage,
The OP of this thread does take, as a premise, that it is posted in the General RPG wing of a discussion board for RPG hobbyists. So presumably most of those who aren't interested will never even encounter it! And those who do encounter it but aren't interested can easily ignore it.

I also think there is an extent to which "amateurs" piggyback on the work of more serious devotees. A non-RPG example: my downloading of chord charts from guitar websites for songs that I can't figure out by ear depends upon there being better musicians than me who can figure those songs out!

So what we do isn't necessarily irrelevant to the rest of the hobby even if they don't want to participate.
 

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In that case why am I not on your side as opposed to being on the opposition "my side"?

Maybe you play in living worlds and am on my side and we are talking past each other. I am not sure. But my sense is you have some fundamental disagreements with the approaches I've talked about when I've gotten into them here in the past. Maybe it is just in how we conceptualize things. I am not sure. I do notice you keep bringing it back to 'the fiction' (which isn't meant as an attack or anything). And I suspect that is the point where we have the greatest about of divergence in how we see these things (you seem more comfortable not distinguishing between the world and the fiction; I like to distinguish between the world and what occurs with the PCs in that world: if I am wrong on this certainly correct me). For instance another poster made the comment that 'there is only the fiction'. I think it is a minor but important distinction.

That said, in case it got lost: I am for an expansive view of sandbox and living world (and I don't strictly play just that style). My attitude is if there are other approaches and other types of games that do things differently than how I normally talk of sandbox, I think having multiple kinds of sandboxes is great. I do still think it is helpful though to distinguish between the different approaches (and not categorizing the different approaches in a way that is belittling or suggests they can never be crossed together).
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
The OP of this thread does take, as a premise, that it is posted in the General RPG wing of a discussion board for RPG hobbyists. So presumably most of those who aren't interested will never even encounter it! And those who do encounter it but aren't interested can easily ignore it.

I also think there is an extent to which "amateurs" piggyback on the work of more serious devotees. A non-RPG example: my downloading of chord charts from guitar websites for songs that I can't figure out by ear depends upon there being better musicians than me who can figure those songs out!

So what we do isn't necessarily irrelevant to the rest of the hobby even if they don't want to participate.
I didn't say or mean it's irrelevant, only that most people wouldn't care (that's on them, not us). This is far more a design side thread than anything else, at least at this point. It's pretty ephemeral for you average hobbyist though.
 

I also think there is an extent to which "amateurs" piggyback on the work of more serious devotees. A non-RPG example: my downloading of chord charts from guitar websites for songs that I can't figure out by ear depends upon there being better musicians than me who can figure those songs out!

Importantly though, even though the person who put those out may be more educated in music than you, you might be able to take those chords and be a better song writer than the person who wrote the book.
 

A tad overly-aggressive don't you think?

Especially since the original argument from MBC is flawed given that he is comparing paid professions to hobbyists - specifically GMs.

A couple things on this:

1) In the course of human history, monetizing a martial art, a craft, the product of artisanship is an extremely recent occurrence. Its a minor blip in the overall arc of millions of years and even when you index it to the Homo sapien record f the last 100 k years. Overwhelmingly, martial artists, craftsfolk, artisans plied their trade as a specialist among a small collective; an individual answer to a selection pressure....an answer that they handed down generationally among their clan.

2) Even in the last 10 to 12 k years where trade actually became a functional part of human history, martial artists, craftsfolk, artisans who actually monetized their trade is extremely small % of the total collective of those who are functional.

I'm not special, but I'm functional or better at probably 2 dozen things that I could effectively monetize. The world is made up of people who have broad aptitude at a number of things (sufficient to be "functional") but could never enter the tail of the human distribution in any one thing (like myself...I'll never be a world class anything, but I'm functional to good at a lot). These things would be "hobbies" to me (just like TTRPGing).
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
You can't be too precious about the distinction of being paid as some sort of dividing line either. Many martial artists volunteer their time as part of their belting process, and in some other cases coaches, even ones who coach high-level competitive players, don't get paid for it (that would be me, for example). Monetizing the skill of being a GM is so new that it doesn't bear the weight of comparison at all anyway.
 
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You can't be too precious about the distinction of being paid as some sort of dividing line either. Many martial artists volunteer their time as part of their belting process, and in some other cases (like mine) coaches, even ones who coach high-level competitive players, don't get paid for it (that would be me, for example). Monetizing the skill of being a GM is so new that it doesn't bear the weight of comparison at all anyway.

Exactly, monetization shouldn't weigh into any longitudinal study. You're just asking for a clustereff of noise about markets, opportunity, zeitgeist, and meritocracy.

Whereas "functional" as a metric isn't remotely as fraught and is pretty damn intuitive.
 

pemerton

Legend
@pemerton @Ovinomancer @Manbearcat - Thank you all for your answers and play examples!
No worries!

The thing I'm wondering about most immediately is how much of enjoyment of the DM and players is what they imagine they're doing, as opposed to what they're actually doing. For example, if a player was enjoying what he thought was going through a dungeon with pre-specified difficulties, how much of that should be lost if it turns out the DCs were being made up on the fly? If a player was having fun thinking that all of the responses hadn't been pre-imagined by the DM and showed up organically in play, how much of that should be lost if they learn the DM had a pre-imagined plot that sometimes dropped in?

<snip>

Do the adamant no-dice-fudgers still adjust whether reinforcements all show up or have the villain switch attacks just to save a PC? Do they adjust what magic items were going to be found if a character dies and is replaced by a different class? etc. And I wonder how many players would want the "no-fudge" option when picking a game style, but then want the fudging out at some level (is taking character backgrounds into account when world designing considered fudging to some).
I don't do a lot of dungeon with pre-specified difficulties play. But I think if I had signed up for that, and then learned that in fact the GM was making it up as s/he goes along, I would feel a bit ripped off. I have had somewhat parallel experiences where, a certain way (eg a few sessions) into a game it becomes clear that nothing we do as players is having a substantial effect on the situations the GM is presenting to us. Generally those games have not been good ones.

When I'm playing Burning Wheel it tends to be fairly apparent to me when the GM is introducing something that was prepared or pre-imagined. This is because (i) I know him fairly well and can recognise his predictions, and (ii) they tend to have a degree of intricacy that suggests some prep rather than spontaneity. I don't really care where he draws his material from, provided that he follows the precepts of the game - that is, framing scenes that speak to player-authored Beliefs, Instincts et al; and narrating consequences (especially failure consequences) that reflect the player intent for action declarations. Because of the role of player authorship, there are going to be practical constraints on how much pre-imagining is feasible and helpful.

There are no secret rolls in the games that I play/GM at the moment, with one exception: Classic Traveller calls for secret rolls by the referee to determine if a branch of the Psionics Institute exists on a world. I have adopted a practice of making that roll at the same time that I make my other world notes as part of the process of world generation. There is also an express permission in Classic Traveller for the referee to use non-random considerations in generating worlds, and so far I have done that once in relation to branches of the Psionics Institute. I can't remember what exactly I said to the players at the time, but it doesn't worry me if they work out that I made a deliberate decision on that occasion: the trigger for it was their declared action to search for a branch on the world they were on, which had an established connection to an ancient psionics-using alien civilisation.

When I was GMing 4e, I would make decisions about reinforcements, which PC a villain might attack, etc based on what seemed sensible and fun at the time. At least one of my players adopted a general policy of not unloading all his big guns early on the basis that "pemerton always keeps something up his sleeve" in an encounter. As far as magic items were concerned in that game, these were mostly gifts or improvements of existing items; but when items were occasionally discovered I was generally going off player-authored "wishlists" to decide what they were.

In our Prince Valiant game there have been two "magic items" so far. One is a silvered dagger blessed in the waters of St Sigobert. It was a gift to one of the PCs from the Duke of York (on the occasion of another PC's wedding to the Duke's daughter Elizabeth), the recipient PC having founded a holy military order The Knights of St Sigobert. The other is a greatsword that one of the PCs (the husband of Elizabeth of York) took from a cursed ghost/haunt that the PCs defeated in the forests of Dacia. It seems likely that the greatsword is cursed in some fashion, and so far the character uses it sparingly.
 

There are a number of videos out there on DMing. Some of them have a "DM as mystic" approach, while others are about "demystifying DMing." I find that its these latter ones that are the most helpful for newcomers, while the former seem to mostly exist to aggrandize the DM and their sense of authority.

I can't really argue with that.
I was more suggesting that the very existence of tutorial videos for running games means that the process is being more and more demystified all the time and thus GM's are better on average than they've ever been.

Do you have any examples of videos showing the 'DM as mystic' approach? I'm kinda curious as I'm not really sure what that would involve.
 


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