D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Remathilis]

I don't deny that some elements of Ravenloft were going to need an overhaul. I understand that perfectly, in fact. I'm no purist. But I think you may be missing the point I'm raising.

If their goal is to make Ravenloft work better for new audiences, then why revive these old, problematic domains at all? Just take the concepts and create a brand new domain, without any baggage whatsoever.

If they're trying to hook older fans, you'd think they'd want to keep as much of these old domains as possible, while limiting fixes to the problematic elements. (And if the domain just plain doesn't work without the problematic elements... let it stay in the past.) If Wizards thinks that all you need to satisfy older Ravenloft fans is a few familiar names, then they must think older fans are very superficial...

I'm wagering that they aren't touching some of the more beloved domains/darklord (maybe not: See Mordenheim) but the ones getting overhauled aren't the ones that were especially beloved: I don't think you could poll most fans of the setting for favorite darklord/domain and get d'Honiare or Van Karkov as answers.

I also think WotC called out the biggest changes early to get ahead of this, I'm thinking there will be a lot of domains that have only minor tweaks or just cleaned up. Some others might not make the transition (Sithicus is a prime example). They called out the most radical changes both to advise "this isn't the old setting repackaged" and to get people used to the notion of these changes so that when they see Mordent, Darkon, or Forlorn is more-or-less the same, they'll be willing to accept the revised domains more.

Or not. We'll find out in a month.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And Valachan would certainly be a more interesting domain if it was focused around ACTUAL African lore, perhaps written by someone who was familiar with it, rather than the strange mishmash of Africa and European it is now.

I don' know. I think this actually is more racially insensitive. The original presentation of Valachan (at least as I remember it--not in a position at the moment to review the entry), I don't believe they even got into the skin color of the natives of the domain. Pretty sure it was a dungeon adventure that first introduced the idea that the inhabitants were black (I could be wrong on that as I am purely going on memory), but either way, but DoD the inhabitance were described as "tall and black skinned....with straight hair". It made some kind of sense though that the inhabitants would reflect the appearance of the lord (who began life as a panther, which is the reason he has that skin tone). But it felt like skin color was more incidental: it didn't get at anything essential, and the fact that you could have domain with people who have black skin but with a culture that seemed German spoke against things like ethno-nationalism, racial essentialism. For those of us who were alive at the time Ravenloft was released, the arguments racists made to denigrate other races and recruit were based on blood and soil ideology: on the notion that our differences were essential, not cultural. So the idea that the domain with black people in it, needs to be African, would be something they would have advocated for. The fact that you don't have to have that in Valachan is a good thing. There is nothing wrong with having say an African domain. But I think it would be ashame to take away a domain that became one where culture and skin tone were not seen as tied together at all. That domain is one of the reasons going forward in my own campaign worlds, I realized you didn't need to have these things connected. I often made settings where you had ethnic groups resembling real world ethnic groups but which cultures they ended up in was a result of the accident of history or just pure random determination on my part.

 

[JEB]

I'm wagering that they aren't touching some of the more beloved domains/darklord (maybe not: See Mordenheim) but the ones getting overhauled aren't the ones that were especially beloved: I don't think you could poll most fans of the setting for favorite darklord/domain and get d'Honiare or Van Karkov as answers.

I'm sure you're right that Dementlieu and Valachan weren't top-tier favorites. That weakens the case for recycling their names on completely new domains... what's the marketing value, then?

I also think WotC called out the biggest changes early to get ahead of this, I'm thinking there will be a lot of domains that have only minor tweaks or just cleaned up. Some others might not make the transition (Sithicus is a prime example). They called out the most radical changes both to advise "this isn't the old setting repackaged" and to get people used to the notion of these changes so that when they see Mordent, Darkon, or Forlorn is more-or-less the same, they'll be willing to accept the revised domains more.

I suppose that's possible, that this is an attempt to give folks upset by the changes some time to calm down. Pretty manipulative, if so. (And I still have to ask - if they thought folks would be upset by these changes, why not sidestep the issue entirely by avoiding those domains?)

 

[Remathilis]

I don' know. I think this actually is more racially insensitive. The original presentation of Valachan (at least as I remember it--not in a position at the moment to review the entry), I don't believe they even got into the skin color of the natives of the domain. Pretty sure it was a dungeon adventure that first introduced the idea that the inhabitants were black (I could be wrong on that as I am purely going on memory), but either way, but DoD the inhabitance were described as "tall and black skinned....with straight hair". It made some kind of sense though that the inhabitants would reflect the appearance of the lord (who began life as a panther, which is the reason he has that skin tone). But it felt like skin color was more incidental: it didn't get at anything essential, and the fact that you could have domain with people who have black skin but with a culture that seemed German spoke against things like ethno-nationalism, racial essentialism. For those of us who were alive at the time Ravenloft was released, the arguments racists made to denigrate other races and recruit were based on blood and soil ideology: on the notion that our differences were essential, not cultural. So the idea that the domain with black people in it, needs to be African, would be something they would have advocated for. The fact that you don't have to have that in Valachan is a good thing. There is nothing wrong with having say an African domain. But I think it would be ashame to take away a domain that became one where culture and skin tone were not seen as tied together at all. That domain is one of the reasons going forward in my own campaign worlds, I realized you didn't need to have these things connected. I often made settings where you had ethnic groups resembling real world ethnic groups but which cultures they ended up in was a result of the accident of history or just pure random determination on my part.

I'm not going to get too deep into this, mostly because as a white male, I don't see the issue quite the same as those who are closer to it. But I can say from old discussions on Twitter that some took offense to how the domain and lord were portrayed, and I can see some of thier complaints.

That said, I'd like point out the new Darklord's name is Chakuna is Hindi (not African, as I assumed). Further, the author of the new domain is a Hispanic woman by her own admission. Neither of those elements may be important though. My guess though is they wanted to remove Ulrik's more European name and untangle his origin.

 

[humble minion]

Have to admit, if they think old domains like Valachan or Dementlieu or whatever are so problematic or boring or badly-conceived that in 5e they need a complete rewrite with a new concept and a new darklord, I'd personally have much preferred they just make up completely new domains and ignore the existence of the old one. With the Core going away you don't NEED to write them up simply because they're on the map. You can replace them with new domains that you think are better, and the old material can be covered by the community in DMGuild products if they really want to.

It just seems a little disrespectful to the people who created places like Dementlieu to throw out absolutely everything that made Dementlieu Dementlieu, and have a completely different new domain wear its name like stolen clothes. I mean, I like the sound of 5e Dementlieu from what I've heard so far, but it isn't Dementlieu in any meaningful way. You could incorporate those cool new ideas without actively going out of our way to invalidate old canon.

And this goes for Valachan too. I mean, clearly I don't like the place, wouldn't use it in a game, and find little inspiration in it. But there's probably some people out there who do, so why not leave it out of the book completely, and create a completely new panther-themed domain (and/or African-influenced domain, and/or Most Dangerous Game domain)? You could even give it a proper African-inspired name if you did it that way. 'Valachan' really doesn't fit in anywhere...

 

[Bedrockgames]

I'm not going to get too deep into this, mostly because as a white male, I don't see the issue quite the same as those who are closer to it. But I can say from old discussions on Twitter that some took offense to how the domain and lord were portrayed, and I can see some of thier complaints.

That said, I'd like point out the new Darklord's name is Chakuna is Hindi (not African, as I assumed). Further, the author of the new domain is a Hispanic woman by her own admission. Neither of those elements may be important though. My guess though is they wanted to remove Ulrik's more European name and untangle his origin.

There may have been issues with the domain lord, I can't say as I don't have it on hand at the moment. I don't know the particular criticisms. My only point is, I think there is a real danger of missing the fact that it was a domain that didn't pin culture to skin color (and we shouldn't fall into the trap of assuming a domain needs to have the culture align with real world ethnicities: because then I do think you are getting into blood and soil territory/ethno nationalism---which is one of the things that made 20th century racism so horrific).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Have to admit, if they think old domains like Valachan or Dementlieu or whatever are so problematic or boring or badly-conceived that in 53 they need a complete rewrite with a new concept and a new darklord,

I got to say, I think you guys are way off on this one.

 

[Faolyn]

You could even give it a proper African-inspired name if you did it that way. 'Valachan' really doesn't fit in anywhere...

Honestly, Valachan never felt African to me. It always seemed like a medieval fantasy domain. The flora and fauna, as described in both the Black Box and GazIV, is far more North American/European in nature (redwood trees, moose, pine martins, wolverines), just with lots of big cats--and while there are tigers, the Gazetteer makes it sound like the writers forgot you could advance creatures and so threw every type of feline in there as possible instead of saying "panther" and "panther that has extra HD."

That the inhabitants are dark-skinned was likely because Von Kharkov clearly had to be a were black panther instead of any of the other types of feline that can be described as a panther (like a mountain lion). And thus, since he's not supposed to be particularly unusual in appearance, his people had to have a similar skin tone.

 

[humble minion]

There may have been issues with the domain lord, I can't say as I don't have it on hand at the moment. I don't know the particular criticisms. My only point is, I think there is a real danger of missing the fact that it was a domain that didn't pin culture to skin color (and we shouldn't fall into the trap of assuming a domain needs to have the culture align with real world ethnicities: because then I do think you are getting into blood and soil territory/ethno nationalism---which is one of the things that made 20th century racism so horrific).

That's probably fair. I guess I'm extrapolating from the comments by the guy who did the new Indian-themed domain that replaces Sri Raji, in that he wanted to write up a domain that actually mined Indian horror and myth rather than used them as a coat of paint. And that domain has undergone a name change. If (and it's a big 'if'...) the new iteration of Valachan is similarly being repurposed as an African-inspired domain (rather than the generic quasi-European werepanther domain where people happened to be dark-skinned, as @Faolyn accurately describes it) then I think a new name would be called for.

 

[Bedrockgames]

the new iteration of Valachan is similarly being repurposed as an African-inspired domain (rather than the generic quasi-European werepanther domain where people happened to be dark-skinned, as @Faolyn accurately describes it) then I think a new name would be called for.

Which troubles me because it seems like a shift towards ethno-nationalism (the kind of thinking that ties the color of our skin to the kinds of cultural expressions we can have). I am not saying you can't have an african domain with people who look like real world people from Africa (I get the value of conveying that shorthand in a fantasy setting). But taking a domain that didn't connect culture and race, and using it to connect culture and race, I honestly think that is a little disturbing if the people doing it, think they are being more enlightened (cause it isn't).