D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[JEB]

Isn't that most vampires, though? Notwithstanding self-made vampires like Strahd, most vampires are ordinary people who are turned by other vampires.

The difference with Prince Mamuwalde (from Blacula) and von Kharkov is that becoming a monster was forced on them by the cruel whims of a nastier villain (though they both eventually grew into the role anyway). As opposed to the gradual decline and then transformation you see with most vampire victims.

 

[Voadam]

My thoughts are Urik was there to have multiple vampires as darkords, but be a twist from standard vampires. Strahd is the iconic one plus magic, Gundar was standard but more powerful and not as sophisticated, Urik is the twist with the panther stuff.

Pretty quickly (Feast of Goblyns) we got another variant vampire lord who looks like a lycanthrope. Ravenloft likes to double up on themes with slight differences.

 

[Tonguez]

added something new and unique to the Core, which Valachan just doesn't. If there's any Valachan enthusiasts out there who love the place, please let me know why I'm wrong.

One of the more interesting takes on Valachan I’ve seen is to have it be Mexico/Yucatan inspired (becauses jaguars) and to play up the colonial clash between the Vaasi and Natives. The tension sees a clash of culture between the industrialisation of the Vaasi and the Agrarian bent of ther Valachani and their untamable jungle god (were the Panthers dwell).
Being Mexico inspired also means that the Valachan festivals can be modelled on Día de los Muertos and GMs can drop ancient ruined temples in the jungles

the Price of Revenge adventure is spun out so that Ungrad becomes the center of Vaasi colonialism via Doctor Despini-Hoyer bringing in Belgian Congo levels of cruel oppression of the natives. Doctor Despini-Hoyer is a nosferatu and could even make for a secondary Darklord in opposition to the native Don Urik

 

[Bedrockgames]

I assumed (possibly uncharitably) that Blacula was the main inspiration for von Kharkov. Not simply because von Kharkov is a Black vampire, but because there are also similar "unwillingly turned into a monster by a worse bad guy" elements in his backstory.

Could be some Cat People in there as well, though.

I don't recall the WW era Ravenloft description that well, but the earlier descriptions never really struck me as Blacula inspired (that had a particular vibe and aesthetic that just wasn't present in Valachan).

 

[Remathilis]

In game - in the context of a long-running campaign I honestly wonder why Valachan is part of the Core at all. It really adds nothing, it's an insular domain with little cultural impact on the rest of the Core, and there's little reason to come here. Socially, the 'self-reliant woodman' trope is already all over Kartakass and Verbrek, so it doesn't add anything new or novel in terms of possible PC origins etc either (except as a source of dark-skinned PCs, and jeez, can't we do better than that?). There isn't really even any interesting side-quests or plot hooks here, everything is centred around the Baron. It's is a lot like Forlorn in that way, again, a domain designed for a single adventure. It'd be better as an island in the mists, to be honest. You could do a one-off weekend-in-hell type adventure here, using the (interesting) Felkovic's Cat artifact and trying to kill the baron, and being trapped here could actually be genuinely creepy and hard to survive given the Baron's myriad methods of spying (cats, nosferatu slaves, and the entire priesthood of Yutow is basically his spy network too). But that's kinda the only story that the place is good for, as written. The extra space in the Core (and pager count!) could have been much better used on different domain - Paridon would have been my choice, but Markovia, or relocating G'Henna somewhere to the desolate south-east of Hazlan, or something competely new like an underground dwarf domain would have added something new and unique to the Core, which Valachan just doesn't. If there's any Valachan enthusiasts out there who love the place, please let me know why I'm wrong.

To show you how little I paid attention to Valachan, I assumed it was Jungle and that it had a stong Colonial/Aparthied element to it. Maybe its because giant cats are exactly common in Europe or NA (Bobcats or mountain lions, but not panthers to my knowledge) or the dark skin natives. To me, the original domain feels like it should be an island or a cluster somewhere, not part of the core. (Or if it must be part of the core, stick in in the middle where the Shadow Rift is and allow a domain with a coast to be on the edge.)

Honestly, if it were me I'd have chucked it long ago and replaced it with a more interesting island domain. Its a coastal domain without a coast, with a darklord that has a "problematic" origin (the only black male darklord was literally born a beast an "civilized" into acting like his white creators just screams icky) and one that itself is rather one-note. It was very surprising that I saw it mentioned in the press release for the new book, but it sounds very much like they are heavily revising it (new darklord, a "most dangerous game" element with lots of beasts and deadly flora, perhaps a True African vibe).

 

[JEB]

it sounds very much like they are heavily revising it (new darklord, a "most dangerous game" element with lots of beasts and deadly flora, perhaps a True African vibe).

Agreed, much like Dementlieu it sounds like the new Valachan is a complete overhaul.

(Though this route seems kind of odd, when you think about it. What's the advantage to reviving an existing, canonical domain, but completely rewriting everything about it except for a few names? New fans don't care that you used the old names, and you miss out on the nostalgic appeal to old fans if there's nothing familiar. If the old domain was too much trouble, seems like you'd be much better off just ignoring it and creating something completely fresh.)

 

[Faolyn]

Agreed, much like Dementlieu it sounds like the new Valachan is a complete overhaul.

(Though this route seems kind of odd, when you think about it. What's the advantage to reviving an existing, canonical domain, but completely rewriting everything about it except for a few names? New fans don't care that you used the old names, and you miss out on the nostalgic appeal to old fans if there's nothing familiar. If the old domain was too much trouble, seems like you'd be much better off just ignoring it and creating something completely fresh.)

My guess is that they're keeping enough--like werepanthers in a deep dark forest with lower-tech inhabitants--that they don't want the older readers to say "hey, this is just a Most Dangerous Game rip-off of Valachan!" Likewise, my current theory for Dementlieu is that the natives have been mind-controlled into acting out fairy tale elements, rather than just having the fairy-tale aspects appear for no other reason.

I guess that Valachan and Dementlieu are now so different because both darklords had an obsession with women that colors the way they deal with their domain (even if, in Urik's case, the woman is mostly his "no, I'm human, really!" beard).

 

[Remathilis]

Agreed, much like Dementlieu it sounds like the new Valachan is a complete overhaul.

(Though this route seems kind of odd, when you think about it. What's the advantage to reviving an existing, canonical domain, but completely rewriting everything about it except for a few names? New fans don't care that you used the old names, and you miss out on the nostalgic appeal to old fans if there's nothing familiar. If the old domain was too much trouble, seems like you'd be much better off just ignoring it and creating something completely fresh.)

So this is my take: Ravenloft was D&D's horror setting. It has some iconic characters, some really great ideas, settings, and some history. Ravenloft (the module) has seen printing for nearly every edition of D&D and there are plenty of products that have borrowed Ravenloft's name (such as the boardgame that came out in 4e). Any attempt to co-opt Ravenloft with a new setting (be in Innistrad or something completely new) would end up resulting in "Why didn't you use Ravenloft?" as the automatic retort. Clearly, the Ravenloft BRAND has some bite in it. (Pun intended).

HOWEVER

Ravenloft, the settings LORE is kinda problematic. It wasn't well stewarded in the years it was active in TSR (ranging in some products of varying quality for excellent to WTF), its lore has numerous issues, retcons, and outright contradictions, and a fair amount of the domains have hooks that were fine in 1990's but doesn't fit WotC's 2020's ethos. In short, the details of the setting needed an overhaul, even if the concept of the setting is sound.

@humble minion has pointed a number of these issues out as he's been going domain to domain; some ideas don't like they once did. There are issues with how women are portrayed (both as darklords and as tragic figures in the male darklord origins), with race (both in the D&D "every domain but a handful is overwhelming human" and in the "how domains portray other RW races and cultures" sense), and with how close certain domains mimic thier source material (Strahd, for example has had great pains taken to move him further from being a Dracula ripoff, especially in looks. Compare CoS Strahd to Realms of Terror Strahd visually). Some domains have a strong story, while others are fairly tame to the point of kinda boring.

So WotC is trying to re-invent Ravenloft by keeping what has worked (strong thematic domains, classic horror monsters, Mists) and fix the things that don't anymore (Vistani as g*psies, redundant domains/darklords, representation issues). Obviously, this isn't going to work for everyone, but I think they can both keep to the spirit (again, pun intended) of the setting even if they have to do some major revision on the detail level.

And Valachan would certainly be a more interesting domain if it was focused around ACTUAL African lore, perhaps written by someone who was familiar with it, rather than the strange mishmash of Africa and European it is now.

 

[Remathilis]

My guess is that they're keeping enough--like werepanthers in a deep dark forest with lower-tech inhabitants--that they don't want the older readers to say "hey, this is just a Most Dangerous Game rip-off of Valachan!" Likewise, my current theory for Dementlieu is that the natives have been mind-controlled into acting out fairy tale elements, rather than just having the fairy-tale aspects appear for no other reason.

I guess that Valachan and Dementlieu are now so different because both darklords had an obsession with women that colors the way they deal with their domain (even if, in Urik's case, the woman is mostly his "no, I'm human, really!" beard).

My guess is more than Valachan had some issues with how they presented a black darklord more so than his issues with his wives, not that THAT is any great shakes either. I distinctly recall Valachan and Souragne being called out how they portrayed dark skinned humans in the setting (aka, not too well).

 

[JEB]

In short, the details of the setting needed an overhaul, even if the concept of the setting is sound.

I don't deny that some elements of Ravenloft were going to need an overhaul. I understand that perfectly, in fact. I'm no purist. But I think you may be missing the point I'm raising.

If their goal is to make Ravenloft work better for new audiences, then why revive these old, problematic domains at all? Just take the concepts and create a brand new domain, without any baggage whatsoever.

If they're trying to hook older fans, you'd think they'd want to keep as much of these old domains as possible, while limiting fixes to the problematic elements. (And if the domain just plain doesn't work without the problematic elements... let it stay in the past.) If Wizards thinks that all you need to satisfy older Ravenloft fans is a few familiar names, then they must think older fans are very superficial...

My guess is that they're keeping enough--like werepanthers in a deep dark forest with lower-tech inhabitants--that they don't want the older readers to say "hey, this is just a Most Dangerous Game rip-off of Valachan!" Likewise, my current theory for Dementlieu is that the natives have been mind-controlled into acting out fairy tale elements, rather than just having the fairy-tale aspects appear for no other reason.

That was my theory originally with Dementlieu, but now I'm not so sure about it, after that Lore You Should Know segment. It sounds like they only really liked a few names and the domain being French-themed, and didn't think much of the rest. I wouldn't be surprised if Valachan is a similar case.

Even if they're following the logic you suggested, it's an odd call. Given a choice between "you changed Valachan!" and "this domain is a rip-off of Valachan!", the former is much more likely to generate complaints from older fans.