What is the point of GM's notes?

Good lord, no. They aren't interchangeable because they mean different things. What is your boggle here?
My point is they are not interchangeable things, yet they are all contained in the word fiction. Therefore then not being interchangeable but part of that word, creates the ambiguity that allows for equivocation
 

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Sorry I was meandering briefly into a Texasism. I guess I could have said he wasn't holding anything in his poker hand.

Much less Texas!

I think this is a key insight about player skill. I would say player agency maybe on top of that. For example, in some games getting the group "in trouble" is built into the game and pretty hard to avoid. The dice will lead their eventually. Whereas, in theory at least, with careful planning and strategy, the group might accomplish their mission without getting into serious trouble. Then they have that "I love it when a plan comes together" feeling. A feeling of having overcome real obstacles.

Sure, this is one of the appeals of skilled play. And I don't think this kind of play is specific to old school dungeon delve type scenarios....I imagine a lot of the sandbox play style that's been advocated for in this thread would also yield this kind of result.


I would agree if you mean my level of prep but I think a game with little prep is not going to go very well. So there is a vast amount of prep between my level and very little. I admit I base that only upon my own experience but I do have a lot of experience.

I have no doubt you have years of experience with D&D and similar games based on your statements and your choice in avatar!

But what about with games that play differently than D&D?

I think the impact of the prep on verisimilitude and character immersion (as opposed to just regular immersion) is impacted by these same techniques. I recognize that having to be ready to infuse the game with new world details as a player can keep you focused. So that sort of immersion seems likely.


And that is the key division. It's either a blessing or a curse depending on the person.


I don't think it's obvious to me they would be more invested in the setting. It's not my experience. I think there are aspects of the game in that style which would garner a lot of focus on the game.


I find there are techniques to draw them into the game and make them care more about the setting. Of course it varies by individual but my groups tended to care about the setting. I also tend to detail things that tend to be of interest to PCs.

Sure, this is all I mean.....it's all a matter of preference.

Is that a game rule? A practice? I've seen this stated many times but if like me you tend to view the setting as established it doesn't happen.

No, it's not a rule. I suppose I would say it's more of a fact? I mean, if you design a dungeon....let's call it the Maze of Madness.....and plan to introduce it into your campaign, it's an idea, right? It's fiction that you've created. You may think of it as part of the game, and I absolutely understand why.

But.....if you got hit by a bus before the Maze of Madness was introduced, or if one of your players said offhandedly "man, I really wish we cuold do something besides delve into dungeons" and so you ditch the Maze of Madness, or any number of other things......then is it part of the fiction of that game? No, it's not.

If we think of the game as a shared thing, then it's only the things that are shared that are actually part of the fiction. Until then, anything else is just possibility.
 

The problem is the equivocation with fiction often aligns with particular play styles. And it is particularly troublesome in discussions about sandboxes. Again most sandbox GMs don't object to living world as a description (and I think shared imagined space also would go down well). Terms like fiction introduce issues (and we've seen those issues play out in these discussions here)

But if you say to me "What do you mean by fiction?" I can very easily explain by "The make believe parts of the game". Am i equivocating?

If I say to you "What do you mean by Living World?" can you give me anywhere near as clear an answer? I already asked once, so I'm asking again. What's your most concise definition you can provide for the concept of Living World?

Maybe most sandbox GMs don't object to the living world descriptor. Most people don't object to fiction as a description of things that are made up.
 

But if you say to me "What do you mean by fiction?" I can very easily explain by "The make believe parts of the game". Am i equivocating?

If I say to you "What do you mean by Living World?" can you give me anywhere near as clear an answer? I already asked once, so I'm asking again. What's your most concise definition you can provide for the concept of Living World?

Maybe most sandbox GMs don't object to the living world descriptor. Most people don't object to fiction as a description of things that are made up.
Sorry I already defined living world many times over Hawkeye
 

Maybe most sandbox GMs don't object to the living world descriptor. Most people don't object to fiction as a description of things that are made up.
I think a lot of gamers dislike the term the fiction to describe stuff that happens in an rpg (I know I dislike it)
 

Sorry I already defined living world many times over Hawkeye

If you can't clarify what it means as succinctly as I clarified what "fiction" means, then there we go.

Your attempts to define living world are byzantine and non-specific, presented in giant walls of text.

I think a lot of gamers dislike the term the fiction to describe stuff that happens in an rpg (I know I dislike it)

Sure, and I think I get why. Because you don't want your game to be about making a story in the same sense that an author crafts a story. And I can understand that.

But so what? I don't like the term living world......are you gonna stop using it? No. Should you? No, not if you don't want.

But please don't tell me that others are attempting to equivocate by describing made up things as "fiction" and then use something that you can't even define succinctly.

Living world is like an equivocator's dream.
 

Your attempts to define living world are byzantine and non-specific, presented in giant walls of text.

I offered a very concise definition of it during the thread. but I never claimed living world was a concise concept. It was meant to encompass a lot. You could equivocate on it for sure (I just don't think it is as prone to the particular kinds of issues you see with concepts like story in RPGs as 'fiction')
 

My point is they are not interchangeable things, yet they are all contained in the word fiction. Therefore then not being interchangeable but part of that word, creates the ambiguity that allows for equivocation
No, they arent 'contained' in the word fiction, you have that on backward. With additional specific structures, things not contained in the basic definition, you get the novel, or whatever. The movement is the opposite of what you're implying.
 


No, they arent 'contained' in the word fiction, you have that on backward. With additional specific structures, things not contained in the basic definition, you the novel, or whatever. The movement is the opposite of what you're implying.
They are contained in Def 1, yes. Like mug is contained in the word cup. But perhaps even more so because when I hear the word fiction, the first thing that leaps to mind is a book of fiction (and I suspect that is true for many people). Fiction is a broad category meaning invented imaginary thing right? That would include all manner of invented imaginary things, such as novels and literature. They are therefore contained in the word fiction. And like I said more than that: they are the notable examples listed in the dictionary definition 1.

And that is just that particular dictionary. I grabbed it because it was the first one. But here is what Dictionary.com offers (again I think the room for equivocation is obvious....not saying you are equivocating, but this is pretty straight forward):


See synonyms for: fiction / fictional on Thesaurus.com


noun​

1. the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, especially in prose form.
2. works of this class, as novels or short stories: detective fiction.
something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story: We've all heard the fiction of her being in delicate health.
3 the act of feigning, inventing, or imagining.
4 an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.
5 Law. an allegation that a fact exists that is known not to exist, made by authority of law to bring a case within the operation of a rule of law.
 

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