D&D 5E Why are 5E Giants Huge size?

[Upper_Krust]

• Chief Nosnra fights as a frost giant with no immunities. He has AC 17 from splint armor. The chief is seated at the head table.
• Nosnra’s wife, Grutha, is a hill giant. She sits beside the chief.
• The chief’s cave bear (use the cave bear variant with the polar bear statistics) is licking up spills under the head table at Nosnra’s feet.
• The subchief, also seated at the head table, is a hill giant that fights as a stone giant, without Stone Camouflage. His AC is from splint armor.
• A cloud giant ambassador stands near the firepit.
• A stone giant visitor is seated at the head table.
• Seven hill giants, including the sergeant from area 25 (who has AC 16 from chain mail and 115 hit points), six hill giant servants (use the ogre statistics), and eight ogres are scattered around the room.
• This is the party room.

That's very interesting...although I was specifically thinking encounters with more than 3 Fire Giants.

However, from the above: 1 Cloud, 1 Frost, 2 Stone, 8 Hill, 6 Ogres and a Polar Bear. That's 96k XP equivalent...or CR 26 (in my apparently crazy-person logic).

Worth noting:
1. Cloud Giants are weaker than Fire Giants who are themselves a weak CR 9 (albeit Fire Giants seem the monster in the book so far closest to hitting their CR at around 91% effectiveness ). Cloud Giant 85% effective.
2. Frost Giant CR is also overrated by the book, they come out as 83% effective.
3. Stone Giants about 68% effectiveness
4. Hill Giants around 83% effectiveness
5. Ogres at 67%
6. Polar Bear 79%

So everything seems to be punching BELOW its Challenge Rating basics (and that's before taking AC into account which is low on most as well).

 

[Flamestrike]

Titans do kinda, sorta exist in 5e, kinda, sorta.
Empyreans are called out to be 'Immortal Titans' in their MM entry (page 130), and have the titan special subtype. But otherwise, they're "the celestial children of the gods of the Upper Planes" and are Huge celestials. Greek myth style titans they're kinda not but also kinda am, but as higher order beings descending into the mortal realms they could potentially serve as precursors of the giant races.

Titans follow Greek myth in that they were servants or children of the gods, and there was a war where they revolted and some went to Evil. I think one of the Planes of Hades (or Carceri) is noted as being full of titanic structures from the war and where they live (the NE Empyrean Titans).

In Roman/ Greek (and indeed all Indo-European myth, like Viking lore etc) all contain stories of a race of giants that battled the Gods (or will battle the Gods) at the beginning or end of time (Jotun, Titan etc which all share the same root-word in Proto IndoEuropean language.)

Gods and Giants (Titans/ Jotuns).

 

[Upper_Krust]

UK, the issue @Flamestrike is discussing is that CR only refers to individual monsters and becomes very misleading if you try to apply it to an encounter. Just because an encounter and a monster have the same XP reward does not mean they are really equal. The encounter budget has a range (low to deadly) and takes into account number of PCs and monsters. CR has not of this. CR just tells you if a monster is OK for a party of giving level.

You might think 30,000xp = 30,000xp, but in encounter design vs CR it really doesn't.

Hey Dave mate,

Can you show me an example where a 30,000 XP single monster encounter doesn't equal a combined 30,000 XP monster group?

 

[Upper_Krust]

I’ve always found Challenge rating to be garbage. Gaaarbaaaahj. One it implies every encounter needs to be balanced to be overcome which gets us into “monsters are there to kill” territory. Two it ruins verisimilitude because players can easily judge how an encounter may go for them knowing a CR 9 creature is supposed to be an average encounter if they are level 9. Three balance was about not letting one person steal the spotlight prior to 3e. It turns D&D into gamist rather than a living world. Not every encounter needs to be a battle. Not every Ettin is evil (this coming from a guy with no problem with evil races as a default because I understand Rule 0).

You don't need to adhere to Challenge Rating but its a useful tool for DM's and/or those looking to design monsters.

 

[S'mon]

So everything seems to be punching BELOW its Challenge Rating basics (and that's before taking AC into account which is low on most as well).

Which gives the weird result that third party stuff like Kobold Press that sticks to the DMG numbers often feels 'off' and overpowered compared to the official monsters.

 

[teitan]

Which is the game. Enter dungeon. Kill monsters.

Has been since 1E.

I mean, if you wanna throw Balors at your party at 1st level, Im glad Im not playing in your campaigns.

It's not meant to be an average encounter. See my post above.

No, but most of them are, and when they are, having a rough guide to easily see what they can handle, helps.

If my party tries to fight Balors at first party they’re stupid and that’s a great way, the whole comment here, to read into what I’m saying. I’m encouraging ROLE playing. You think you aren’t going to accidentally encounter something outside of you weight class? And the fact is the expectation from modern players is that the party will meet challenges equal to their level. Also if you read the RAW of even OD&D MOST of the time monsters aren’t attacking even on random reaction rolls. The game was also designed as a game of resource management and XP came from GP and overcoming encounters, not just killing everything in sight like a video game. Even in 5e they say XP should be awarded for resolving the encounter, not just for killing the monsters and taking their stuff. While the rule as designed is intended as a guideline the rule as practiced is anything but as evidenced in the plethora of videos on YouTube and arguments about “unbalanced encounters”. I say get out of here with that noise. If my story calls for an encounter with a Balor, it doesn’t mean it’s a combat encounter. It means it is a challenge to overcome and deal with. That your first reaction is to feel sorry for my players all the more shows you mischaracterized my intent and took an extreme approach to what I’m saying and now you’ve kneed yourself in the face you jerked so hard.

 

[teitan]

You don't need to adhere to Challenge Rating but its a useful tool for DM's and/or those looking to design monsters.

Yes, I agree but that’s not the expectation and if you don’t, bad wrong fun no good GM.

 

[dave2008]

Hey Dave mate,

Can you show me an example where a 30,000 XP single monster encounter doesn't equal a combined 30,000 XP monster group?

I think @Flamestrike explained it best here from a game guidelines perspective, but it is something you need to experience too. Solo monsters simple to don't provide the same challenge, regardless of what the encounter guidelines say, as multiple monster with the same challenge rating. The big issue - focus fire from the PCs. Now, let's loom at some math from the DMG:

2 CR 9 monsters = a 15,000 XP challenge (w/ 1.5 encounter multiplier for 2 foes). This is the same XP as a CR 16 monster.

So what do the monster guidelines say about these two monsters:
CR 9: 205 HP & 62 DPR each for 410 HP and 124 DPR total
CR 16: 310 HP and 104 DPR total

They are not equal and then you also have the focus fire issue. I ham not saying it is a huge difference, but it is a difference. I hope that helps.

 

[dave2008]

So everything seems to be punching BELOW its Challenge Rating basics (and that's before taking AC into account which is low on most as well).

Which gives the weird result that third party stuff like Kobold Press that sticks to the DMG numbers often feels 'off' and overpowered compared to the official monsters.

A lot of people assume this and some do (and some seen a but high too); however, a lot of the mistake is from not using the full monster creation rules in the DMG and just focusing on the Monster Stats by CR table. The are a bunch of things that shift a monster's CR up or down: resistances and immunities, number of saving throws, and unique features. Some of these (like Legendary Resistance and saving throws) can have a huge impact on a creatures CR. And something like damage transfer is just a huge impact:

Damage Transfer

Cloaker

Double the monster’s effective hit points. Add one-third of the monster’s hit points to its per-round damage.

If you don't take all of the factors into account the MM monsters will seem widely off (and sometimes they just are too)

 

[Delazar]

how many Flameskulls can I use to get to 30,000 xp? not sure about the multiplier ...

round one, fireball barrage!