D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting


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Welp, this is in an interesting thread. Interesting enough to get me to sign back up to this forum for the first time in, like, I dunno, 20 years. Anyhoo, AMA about the Gazetteers and I'll answer, to the extent I can, respectfully.

Oh wow, well if you've read the thread then you've already probably seen about 400 questions! And to be honest, even a stream-of-consciousness reaction to any random bits of the stuff in the thread that catches your attention would be awesome. But as for some of the ones I've been particularly curious about...

The adherence to prior canon of the Gazetteer line. How much scope for deviating from the pre-3e line did Arthaus have? Obviously the timeline advanced a bit and there were the inevitable changes resulting from that, but if you wanted to could you have, for instance, replaced darklords, or had a new upheaval along the lines of the Grand Conjunction and rearranged domains, or similar? Or could you have even retconned some of the cities to be bigger? (Demographics and the lack of a really major urban centre in the Core is something we've discussed in the thread at length)

Similarly, with Sithicus, were there limits on what Dragonlance-y material you were or were not able to use?

Thoughts on the place of demihumans and magic in the setting in general? There always seemed to be a tension between the humanocentric and low-magic gaslamp Gothic aesthetic that RL was emulating, and the mechanical realities of D&D where there's probably going to be a wizard and a dwarf or whatever in most parties, and the fighter is much more likely to be wearing full plate than greatcoat and tricorn. Did that ever bother you in the development process, and if so, how did you square the circle?

Any ideas on the origin/purpose of the memory-rewriting effect that happened to people who stayed in Darkon for too long?

Where DOES Strahd get his opera cloaks from, given he wears them all the time while there's no opera houses closer than Dementlieu?
 

Castle Island

Was this even a domain pre-3e? I know it existed as a side-trip in the Servants of Darkness module, but i don't remember it being a self-contained domain. I remember the Lady of the Lake as a significantly powerful monster in the context of the module, but not much more than that.

Castle Island in situated in Lake Kronov, a large, deep, monster-ridden and storm-prone freshwater lake in the middle of Tepest. It's a tiny domain, basically just the island and a small amount of the surrounding lake. The island is really just a craggy rock spur topped with the shattered ruins of a castle. The sole inhabitant is the darklord. One thing I really like about this domain is the Lady's means of closing the borders. Specifically, she can't literally stop people leaving, but anyone crossing the borders while they're 'closed' is afflicted with suicidal madness until they return (as if via a standard failed Madness check). That's creepy, atmospheric, and rich in plot hooks, and I'd love to have seen similar less black-and-white border closing mechanisms used for more domains, especially the smaller pocket domains or the ones like Falkovnia where the darklord didn't have conscious control of the borders. There's a reasonable Tepestani population in the villages etc that ring the lake, they're all aware of the place but steer clear in terror. Even the Inquisition and Wyan don't get close, though there's no real in-character explanation as to why. Surely Finn and the rest would be itching to clear the place out?

Our darklord is a sirene, once the guardian of the lake, who fell in love with a mortal hermit. When she was pregnant with their child, he fell foul of a powerful fey and was turned into a monster that haunted the lake, although he retained his mind in the beast's shape. Eventually the hermit was slain in beast-form by a paladin who mistook him for a real monster. The Lady of the Lake then devoted herself to vengeance in a very extreme, fey-like way - her daughter grew to adulthood and then seduced the paladin to ruin his marriage, the Lady charmed and drowned his wife as she fled, and then later, the caliban child of that union mortally wounded the paladin, dying in the process. The Lady intended to keep the paladin barely alive to suffer indefinitely, but was whisked off by the mists before that could happen. Now she's trapped with the ruins of the paladin's keep as her domain, deprived of the revenge that she sacrificed her daughter and grandson for. And the Dark Powers have replaced her beast-shaped lover with a genuine monster in the same form, so she is reminded all the time of what she lost.

Obviously there's not really enough going on here to spin a full campaign out of. It's a mini-domain after all (not strictly a pocket domain, but similar in size to most of them). I do like the backstory, it's very fey-like in both the characterisation of the Lady and of the fey who cursed her lover in the first place, and the paladin's mistaken slaying of the avanc-hermit is classic medieval tragedy. But the Lady's modern attitude is just one of angry omnicidal psycho unfortunately, and there's not really any obvious way to bring all of the interesting backstory to the fore in an actual game. Perhaps via a familial legacy, PC descended from the paladin etc? The hook presented is that if anyone slays the avanc, another man becomes the new avanc, and so seeking out and slaying the Lady is the only way to get your party member or relative or whatever back. But again, that skips over a lot of the interest in the story. Perhaps a ghost in the Castle, the paladin's wife maybe? Or maybe the Lady's daughter is another victim, she might have had a family and life of her own before being thrown away in search of her mother's vengeance. She could possibly be a Fathomless warlock patron, now i think of it. Or even Ione the paladin himself - the Lady never saw him actually die, could he be roaming the Mists somewhere, having more children, training up squires intent on his own revenge in turn? Has he realised that his hasty sword bears some responsibility for everything that happened? There needs to be a hook in here, to get the PCs involved in the backstory. At the moment, you just go kick down the door and kill the siren and go home, counting your XP.

I'm in two minds about how well this odd but flavourful domain fits in Tepest. The fey themes suit nicely, but there's a sort of quasi-medieval and near-Arthurian vibe about it as well, and maybe it'd fit better somewhere more chivalric? Mind you, the core is short of those. Sithicus could work, or Mordent at a stretch if you're willing to have all this seminal tragedy happen further in the past (canonically, it's only 14 years since the paladin Ione died). Or the Shadowborn cluser somewhere? Though actually, Forlorn could be a really good option. The tech level is about right, as is the cultural match if you date all these events before the fall of Tristan and the transition of the place into Ravenloft, and the Forlorn lake monster doesn't really do much of anything interesting. The Lady's avanc could be a good substitution for Aggie. Or hell, it could be a pocket domain in any sea you care to name, really.

No PC pic for this domain. Other than the darklord, the domain literally has a population of zero! I wonder in fact, if this was going to be a preview of how the small and pocket domains were going to be treated in future Gazetteer books. The Core is made of large domains on the whole, but once you get outside the Core, there's a lot of little ones. Even in the Sea of Sorrows, how much can you really write about Ghastria or Blaustein, which are basically one building on an island each? Or going forward, Scaena, Leederick's Tower, The Endless Road, Shadowborn Manor? There's really not a lot of territory to write about in these domains, were they going to be covered, like Castle Island, as asides from bigger domains? The House of Lament was merely mentioned in passing in Gaz IV as being situated in Borca, and S didn't visit it or cover it in detail at all, and unlike Castle Island its darklord didn't even get a back-of-the-book writeup. But especially for Gaz VI and VII, covering the seas east and west of the core, if you're not writing about tiny domains, there's not much to write about at all...

Next up, Keening.
 
Last edited:

Voadam

Legend
Welp, this is in an interesting thread. Interesting enough to get me to sign back up to this forum for the first time in, like, I dunno, 20 years. Anyhoo, AMA about the Gazetteers and I'll answer, to the extent I can, respectfully.
Hazlik's new lore was a big change for him and how he was presented in the three 2e setting books and the 3.0 Secrets book. It did not contradict any of his old lore, but his old lore had no indication of any of the directions of the new lore.

What was the motivation for adding this kind of new lore to his character story? Was he considered too boring or flat and this was a way to add a new dimension to him? Was it themes a specific author wanted to see in a D&D character/story and this was an opportunity to do so? Something else?
 

The adherence to prior canon of the Gazetteer line. How much scope for deviating from the pre-3e line did Arthaus have? Obviously the timeline advanced a bit and there were the inevitable changes resulting from that, but if you wanted to could you have, for instance, replaced darklords, or had a new upheaval along the lines of the Grand Conjunction and rearranged domains, or similar? Or could you have even retconned some of the cities to be bigger? (Demographics and the lack of a really major urban centre in the Core is something we've discussed in the thread at length)

We (the Kargatane) had an extremely free hand, in a sense. More or less we were just told not to reference other settings and then left to our own devices. Our initial developer (who handed off to the developer team we had for the rest of run) actually gave us one creative note: to break up the Core into separate domains, the 5E approach. However, none of us wanted to do that, and we were handed such an extremely short deadline on the core setting book that we more or less just ignored it. (More on scope for using other settings in the next question.)

But to answer a lot of questions with one answer: While it's true that "White Wolf" published Ravenloft 3E, they did so under their Arthaus line. Arthaus was their "studio" for low-budget, small-audience books. To get RL 3E going, Arthaus hired us, the Kargatane, thanks to recommendations from various TSR/WotC folks who were familiar with us. And generally speaking, the Kargatane were a bunch of D&D 2E nerds with limited to no exposure to White Wolf's RPGs. So a lot of speculation about the "White Wolf" feel of the Arthaus RL books always tickles me.

Similarly, with Sithicus, were there limits on what Dragonlance-y material you were or were not able to use?

The thing about not using other settings is that there were instances - Soth most obviously - when we had to reference them. Ignoring a lot of Domains of Dread's tie-darklords-to-other-settings-for-its-own-sake policy was easy. But you literally can't talk about Sithicus without involving Dragonlance (though the removal of Soth himself did make that easier). And the other thing about not using other settings is that we never received any specific guidelines about what we could and couldn't use. So over time, we realized that the only way to figure out where the boundaries were was to start tapping the ground with sticks and seeing if we hit any landmines. (We never did.) So, in Sithicus, we used the names of Krynn's moons on purpose, basically just to see what would happen. Paladine being mentioned by name was probably an oversight that slipped through the cracks (I say without checking my notes); by then we'd well established (and preferred) our use of formal titles for "outlander" gods.

Thoughts on the place of demihumans and magic in the setting in general? There always seemed to be a tension between the humanocentric and low-magic gaslamp Gothic aesthetic that RL was emulating, and the mechanical realities of D&D where there's probably going to be a wizard and a dwarf or whatever in most parties, and the fighter is much more likely to be wearing full plate than greatcoat and tricorn. Did that ever bother you in the development process, and if so, how did you square the circle?

We basically had two primary creative principles when approaching Ravenloft:

1. We viewed Ravenloft 3E as a direct continuation and synthesis of 2E Ravenloft's continuity. The inability to directly incorporate other settings ended up being far more a tool that we could lean on to pursue our primary goal (of codifying Ravenloft into an adventure setting that made some kind of logical sense from a moment-to-moment basis) far more than it was ever any kind of "contractual obligation" that we had to work around.

2. Be as open as possible (from our POV) to incorporating as much of 3E D&D as possible.

So in the case of both setting continuity and rules options, our goal was to "say yes" in an internally consistent form. Keep in mind that we were coming out of the 2E era, which simply said "no" to a lot of PC concepts.

On top of that, we were, as I mentioned, deep lore nerds who wanted to bring to the fore some ideas we thought the setting had been playing around, as well as some ideas which, well, how to put this. Some ideas that were intended to be progressive at the time but haven't aged well. In the late 1990s-early 2000, pushing the idea that "Vistani are individuals; they're just people, like everyone else" felt important; looking back now, well, there's a lot of "half-blooded ethnic group" talk that wouldn't fly. When Curse of Strahd's depiction of the Vistani stirred up some controversy, several of us in the Kargatane chatted a bit, looking back at our own work, and generally speaking, our sense was "We did our best at the time; we'd do things differently now."

Any ideas on the origin/purpose of the memory-rewriting effect that happened to people who stayed in Darkon for too long?

That was part of Darkon from its first appearance, with extra details (the book) being added during the Grand Conjunction modules. With 3E Ravenloft, we wanted to incorporate as much lore as possible, so basically we would've made efforts to grandfather in everything we could. Rewriting as necessary when that lore was disjointed or wildly inconsistent of course. (Part of this is that, as with Nova Vaasa, if you just ignore the incompatible backstories that have come before while maintaining the overall continuity, then you're just adding a fourth incompatible backstory to the pile.)

Which is to say, Darkon's memory-leeching power is something we inherited, and I can't speak to the Black Box authors' specific creative decisions. However, as a manifestation of Azalin's obsessive control freak personality, it worked for me.

Where DOES Strahd get his opera cloaks from, given he wears them all the time while there's no opera houses closer than Dementlieu?

Vistani, man. (The real reason, of course, is that Strahd's 1E-2E-3E look was based on the classic Lugosi/Lee Dracula, which was in turn based on the stage play of Dracula, in which Dracula is basically only ever seen attending dinner parties in England; he never wears the fashions of his homeland.)
 

Hazlik's new lore was a big change for him and how he was presented in the three 2e setting books and the 3.0 Secrets book. It did not contradict any of his old lore, but his old lore had no indication of any of the directions of the new lore.

What was the motivation for adding this kind of new lore to his character story? Was he considered too boring or flat and this was a way to add a new dimension to him? Was it themes a specific author wanted to see in a D&D character/story and this was an opportunity to do so? Something else?

A. Yes, we thought he was kind of boring, and B. As I dimly recall at this late date, while discussing the details of his backstory, I think it literally came down to us looking around and saying, "Guys, I think Hazlik is gay. So why don't we just say that." It was, of course, important to us that Hazlik's sexuality was the root of the cruelties he suffered (which then provoked his revenge), not the root of his damnation.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
We (the Kargatane) had an extremely free hand, in a sense. More or less we were just told not to reference other settings and then left to our own devices. Our initial developer (who handed off to the developer team we had for the rest of run) actually gave us one creative note: to break up the Core into separate domains, the 5E approach. However, none of us wanted to do that, and we were handed such an extremely short deadline on the core setting book that we more or less just ignored it. (More on scope for using other settings in the next question.)
Y'know, I always wondered why so much stuff from the Book of S__ series was in the Gazetteers. I always assumed you were both drawing from adventures and novels, since I don't read either of those.
 

Y'know, I always wondered why so much stuff from the Book of S__ series was in the Gazetteers. I always assumed you were both drawing from adventures and novels, since I don't read either of those.

The Gazetteers are chock-a-block full of references to adventures and novels. And, yes, the Kargatane went straight from writing/producing the Book of S netbooks to holding the keys to the setting; of course we were going to use a lot of our own ideas. (When I say our own, I specifically mean we, the Kargatane who were getting paid; we considered it inappropriate to include concepts submitted to the netbooks by fans, since that would mean taking their ideas, for free, for use in commercial works. Creative "no no," for us. Of course, one of those "unpaid fans" is now behind Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, which is great.)

The only source of "canon" we more or less straight-up ignored were the trading cards, and even then because we didn't have access to them.
 

Welp, this is in an interesting thread. Interesting enough to get me to sign back up to this forum for the first time in, like, I dunno, 20 years. Anyhoo, AMA about the Gazetteers and I'll answer, to the extent I can, respectfully.
Did you have a plan or schedule for including the small or pocket domains in the Gazetteers? The books mentioned the House of Lament, and also Castle Island as discussed above, but so many of Ravenlofts domains are tiny. Shadowborn Manor was going to get it's own writeup according the the Gaz overview document that's been floating around online for ever (I have no idea how S was going to do that...) but any thoughts about the others? Was there any sort of plan to touch on places like Scaena, the Endless Road, Leederick's Tower, the Richten Haus etc etc? Or would it have more likely been a case of 'we'll slip them in at the time of writing if we can'?

Nosos is one I'm particularly interested in. In Islands of Terror it was actually quite a sizeable place, with industries and mines and shantytowns and vanishing forests, but Domains of Dread kinda shrank it to a garbage dump mini-domain. I have to admit i never liked the darklord much but the pre-DoD iteration of the domain itself was very evocative.
 

M.L. Martin

Adventurer
A. Yes, we thought he was kind of boring, and B. As I dimly recall at this late date, while discussing the details of his backstory, I think it literally came down to us looking around and saying, "Guys, I think Hazlik is gay. So why don't we just say that." It was, of course, important to us that Hazlik's sexuality was the root of the cruelties he suffered (which then provoked his revenge), not the root of his damnation.

I think Hazlik’s sexuality was first floated on the Ravenloft mailing list in the mid-90s by one of the designers, and fans sort of picked it up and ran with it. Sadly, my archives of the list are in a format I can't unpack right now.
 

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