D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Imaro]

Awesome. So... what's the problem, then?

No problem, you decided to address my statement and I in turn addressed yours...

Go, make some rules for your players, and have fun.

Yep... it's what we are talking about in this thread.

Look, the point about using a game that's designed to deliver some particular experience is ADVICE. If you are Super-Duper-GM-Designer-Man, you can ignore the advice. But then, if you are Super-Duper-GM-Designer-Man, you probably didn't ask for advice, so... what's the problem, exactly?

You decided to lecture me on playtesting which lead us down this road... so you tell me... what's the problem then?

There is no particular reason to spend an ounce of energy on trying to disprove the advice, bcause it is advice, not a logical truism. "Oh, well, you told someone they should try another game, and I think you are totally wrong, nobody should ever have to do anything other than hack D&D to their will!" is not a path to a constructive discussion.

Who is trying to disprove anything? I am agreeing that D&D, IMO, is pretty hackable and modable... again you took a minor part of a statement I made about playtesting, zeroed in on it and have led us down this meandering road which honestly doesn't seem to have a real point... so instead has turned into... fine go do what you do then... as a way of ending the conversation. If you want to end the conversation that's fine... neither of us has to reply or engage with the other.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In Fate, these are Consequences that can be styled as injuries. Minor ones clear quickly, Severe ones take longer, even. And they do impact your performance. You don't walk around on a Broken Ankle without it getting in the way.

In my own TTRPG, we have a similar-goal mechanic called Trauma. It’s a less generic game than Fate, so naming isnt quite as broad.

As of right now Trauma is a narrative device that has the mechanical consequence of either imposing a condition until treated, or blocking you from spending attribute points from one of your attributes until treated. Trauma can be treated as part of any rest, with minor trauma going away with a single treatment but leaving you vulnerable (similar trauma before an extended rest automatically upgrades to one step more severe trauma), while higher tiers of traumas can only be reduced in severity outside of treatment as part of an extended rest.

 

[dave2008]

Look, the point about using a game that's designed to deliver some particular experience is ADVICE. If you are Super-Duper-GM-Designer-Man, you can ignore the advice. But then, if you are Super-Duper-GM-Designer-Man, you probably didn't ask for advice, so... what's the problem, exactly?

This issue the OP has highlighted is that is not particularly good/helpful advice to tell a person who is playing one game to go play another game, when they are specifically asking for advice in a particular game.

If I am asking for advice on spaceship rules for a 5e game I am playing, telling me to go play FASA Trek instead is not really helpful.

 

[tetrasodium]

I haven't really bee following this thread from the start, but there has been a lot of talk about fateo ver the last couple pages & how it handles armor that ranges from technically correct to not quite right that I wanted to clear up. If you look at page 277/278 of the fate core rulebook it talks about weapon & armor ratings that increase & reduce damage on a successful attack

Spoiler: 277

That's different from a stunt that adds +1 or +2 to a skill in a broad or semi-narrow application since it only kicks in if there is a successful attack & a +2(fair) weapon 3 attack does nothing vrs a +3(good) armor 0 defense. If that 2&3were reversed though it would do 4 points of stress. the extra point on top of the weapon rating is because the difference between attack & defense rolls on a successful attack overflpws into damage. An armor rating would do nothing for the defense roll but reduce the stress suffered when there is a failed defense roll.

For getting into Fate the most d&d-like race/class/equipment/maybe iirc even feats type analogs I can think of is mindjammer. Dresden files rpg is probably the closest thematically to d&d & has excellent tools for worldbuilding that are incredibly useful to any gm. Fate accelerated is paradoxically so simplistic that it gets a lot more difficult to grasp the incredibly complex system so I'd suggest avoiding anything fae accelerated if you don't already grasp fate.

There are a lot of fate setting type splatbook type things out there & most of them are closer to an old module than a full implementation even when bringing some customizations to how fate is implimented Morts & secret of cats are good lightweight ways to jump in for a couple sessions of dipping your toe in the water but morts is probably better if the goal is a d&d alternative. With that said, the fate core book is pretty much ~300 pages of how to understand & build your own fate implementation that meets your needs with a lot of info on how to grasp/leverage rules and discussion on the pros/cons of various choices. Aside from the early versions of fate it's not a big deal to copy things from roughly dresden files on to present & vice versa but things start changing as you move towards SotC & LoA(LoA is especially confusing)

With all of that said, fate combat gets incredibly brutal incredibly fast, the norm is that one side conceeds fast or dives into a death spiral that can last basically till a major milestone after finishing something almost campaignworthy. Nothing will break if you allow players to recover easier somehow, but those conceeds really add a lot of depth to how the game plays

 

[Jaeger]

D&D is somewhat unique in that it's not designed around a specific setting or theme, but instead meant to be fairly generic, allowing the DM to use whatever specific type of game they want.

I disagree.

D&D has a very strong theme: D&D high fantasy.

D&D is very much its own genre.

It has become a very influential genre that has become so prolific that it seems generic when looked at on its own without hindsight..

Secondly, D&D doesn't have a precisely specific setting, but it has a huge implied setting from the spells, monsters, etc, and it's themes are as limited by the rules as a lot of indie TT RPGs.

Yes. D&D has always been rather coy about having an "official" setting.

But the truth is that Forgotten Realms has basically won that popularity contest. (Not a huge shock seeing as how Greyhawk got made the redheaded stepchild, and the FR was made to encompass all of D&D's legacy system conceits early on way back in 1e.)

And even though 5e continues to be on the down-low about it - classes, spells, cosmology, monsters, are all Heavily biased to Playing D&D style high Fantasy in settings just happen to be very similar to gasp the FR.

...
And because of HP bloat you also always have the case where the PC can walk through heavy suppression fire just fine, only losing a bit of HP which are easy to replace in D&D, and start punching or stabbing the gunner when in reality you would seek cover and running through it is close to suicide. And because we are familiar with modern settings such differences in behaviour is very noticeable.

The level and HP bloat also affect other things. When a PC is level 10, why would he care what some guardsmen says? They can do nothing against him unless they suddenly turn into level 10 guards for no reason. And in a war game you also have the problem that the PCs can only ever meet level appropriate enemies even in a chaotic field battle because enemies of lower level are no threat and (much) higher level enemies guaranteed TPKs.

HP Bloat is the #1 issue that straight d20 conversions to other non-D&D genre's and settings has always felt off for people. Me included.

HP added at every level has a lot of knock on effects to the system. D&D has always had scaling issues at higher levels that they have never been fully able to address in any edition.

The issues with HP Bloat change the way the game is played as a characters HP increases. And this design and PC advancement paradigm did not match up very well with many of the IP that were being converted to the d20 way of doing things.

If you’re doing fantasy adventure, D&D is great. Fantasy adventure is very, very, broad, including everything from Lord of The Rings to Star Wars to David the Gnome and more.

I agree that Fantasy Adventure is very broad.

Which is why I completely disagree that D&D is great for all of it.

The core D&D paradigm of HP at every level does not match the conceits of certain settings and genre's of Fantasy Adventure very well.

5e is open about the fact that they have 4 tiers of play that encompass a huge power shift for PC's that is not present in RPGs that don't have HP bloat.

RPG's without HP bloat have a different play dynamic.

That being said; Lots of players just don't care about some 'different play dynamic'.

If you just fiddle with the D&D classes a bit so you can say "Here you go a ranger class like Aragorn! Wanna play in Middle Earth for a bit?"

They are all over it.

People like playing D&D with a Star Wars veneer, or a Middle Earth veneer.

I don’t think it’s inherently easier to hack than any other system, really. People are just very willing to hack it, because they’re very comfortable with the base rules, and because D&D has had a DIY culture since its inception.

Yup. Familiarity > System.

Call of Cthulhu has it's own little quirks. As a new Keeper, it was sometimes confusing to figure out whether or not a player should use Fast Talk, Persuasion, or Credit Rating for social interactions as the game left it up to me to figure out which was best for the situation. And is there any reason we have the skills of Handgun, Rifle/Shotgun, and Machine Gun are all separate skills? If my character has a History of 65% that's knowledge covers the entire breadth and scope of human civilization but we need to get into the nitty gritty with weapon skills? And the advice for running investigative games wasn't the best though they've improved this quite a bit with 7th edition.

BRP / CoC has legacy issues that continue because that is the way the system does things. Similar to D&D's sacred cows.

Skills in most BRP games like CoC could absolutely use a big trim / redesign to better fit the genre they are altering the system for.

But Chaosium are likely very leery about doing anything that might cause a revolt in the player base.

Functionally there is no reason for most BRP games to not be d20 roll under like pendragon - but that runs into the same issue as trimmed down skill lists - player revolt...

it’s about the inverted character progression. You could bring Sanity into D&D, but you’d still have a game where the characters face challenges and grow stronger from it, rather than a game where characters are worn down to almost nothing by one harrowing experience after another.

Yes, very different play dynamics.

And some just prefer to have the D&D play/progression mode in every game/genre.

Because they like it.*


* I think that the reasons they like it have a lot to do with system familiarity and comfort level, but that is almost a different tangent.

 

[Minigiant]

OK, so basically how I play any RPG I've ever played. Well that certainly seems like a Golden Rule to me!

Fate is a little more.

Fate more or less relies on

1. The groups picking a genre
2. The group knowing the genre
3. The group liking the genre
4. the group enforcing the genre

That's why Fate is great for RPGing an IP. The dice just resolves iffy parts and minor parts while Fate points enforce the genre. The people at the table make the game match the genre or IP.

Many narrower games are designed to enforce the genre or the narrative. There is less hands on enforcement as the game's mechanics puts you int the narrative, not the people at the table holding it together.

 

[dave2008]

Fate is a little more.

Fate more or less relies on

1. The groups picking a genre
2. The group knowing the genre
3. The group liking the genre
4. the group enforcing the genre

That's why Fate is great for RPGing an IP. The dice just resolves iffy parts and minor parts while Fate points enforce the genre. The people at the table make the game match the genre or IP.

Many narrower games are designed to enforce the genre or the narrative. There is less hands on enforcement as the game's mechanics puts you int the narrative, not the people at the table holding it together.

That is very helpful, but doesn't refute that the "golden rule" is applicable to any RPG I have played.

Though I do appreciate the clarification, you described the difference in approach of Fate very clearly. Thank you.

 

[Umbran]

This issue the OP has highlighted is that is not particularly good/helpful advice to tell a person who is playing one game to go play another game, when they are specifically asking for advice in a particular game.

So, question - is making major rules modifications after play has already begun something you'd generally advise? Probably not, right? Players can't build characters to use the stuff you're adding in. Their 5th level fighter already has already invested in their development, and the GM shouldn't be expecting them to adapt to new spaceship rules or something, right?

So, generally, aren't we talking about someone who is not yet playing a particular game? Because otherwise I think the two groups are talking about massively different assumptions. Suggesting folks try another game before play beings should not be seen as an issue.

Edit to add: The OP ends with, "So, for me, "you'd be better off playing a game that is made for that" usually rings hollow. What about you?" This is the core question asked in the OP, as far as I am concerned.

 

[Umbran]

That is very helpful, but doesn't refute that the "golden rule" is applicable to any RPG I have played.

Though I do appreciate the clarification, you described the difference in approach of Fate very clearly. Thank you.

Yeah, and just like some of D&D's designs have knock-on effects, same goes for Fate. Fate, for example, does narratively interesting combat. If you want a fight that'll give you a war story that reads like a scene from an adventure novel, Fate is great. Fate does not do tactical wargame combat, and trying to graft it on will be a Herculean task - if you were playing Fate, and asked me how to do tactical combat, with tight physical positioning and all, I'd tell you to go play D&D or something.

Similar for the power curve. If you want D&D's zero-to-nigh-godhood, that's not native to Fate. If you want it, play D&D.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'mma but in and say: Fate is a really cool game that does what it does very well. I highly recommend you snag a copy and read through it. Even if you never play the game, there's a lot of good ideas to steal for other games.

Fate Accelerated (my preference) has an MSRP of $5 printed.

I endorse this advice, even as someone who doesn’t enjoy fate. It does a lot of cool things and is cleverly designed.

Heavy Armour Master is a hordebreaker feat. Anything intelligent of CR 1/2 or less or animals CR 1/4 or less are simply going to bounce off you despite bounded accuracy. Anything of CR 2 or more is going to ignore it.

Pretty much. Even higher CR guys are often doing unspecified bsp damage, IME, so it still helps.

This issue the OP has highlighted is that is not particularly good/helpful advice to tell a person who is playing one game to go play another game, when they are specifically asking for advice in a particular game.

If I am asking for advice on spaceship rules for a 5e game I am playing, telling me to go play FASA Trek instead is not really helpful.

Exactly.

The core D&D paradigm of HP at every level does not match the conceits of certain settings and genre's of Fantasy Adventure very well.

5e is open about the fact that they have 4 tiers of play that encompass a huge power shift for PC's that is not present in RPGs that don't have HP bloat.

RPG's without HP bloat have a different play dynamic.

Here’s a thing. You aren’t required to use all tiers of play.

So, question - is making major rules modifications after play has already begun something you'd generally advise? Probably not, right? Players can't build characters to use the stuff you're adding in. Their 5th level fighter already has already invested in their development, and the GM shouldn't be expecting them to adapt to new spaceship rules or something, right?

So, generally, aren't we talking about someone who is not yet playing a particular game? Because otherwise I think the two groups are talking about massively different assumptions. Suggesting folks try another game before play beings should not be seen as an issue.

Edit to add: The OP ends with, "So, for me, "you'd be better off playing a game that is made for that" usually rings hollow. What about you?" This is the core question asked in the OP, as far as I am concerned.

Huh. That is an assumption that didn’t occur to me. The bolded question gets a “no” from me. Of course I’d add heist rules or spaceship rules or rules for creating and managing bonds within a community or for managing a stronghold or organization mid-campaign. I’m obviously not going to say, “no we can’t follow this thread into that sub genre because I’d have to add rules to the game”.

And beyond that, I disagree with the other claim you’re making, that it’s reasonable to give the advise in question before a game has begun, if the asker has stated that they want to play D&D with the desired elements and themes.