D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[dave2008]

Usually it's pre-campaign/game when it's in its nascent planning stages. For example, one's generally not going to ask about doing low magic games mid-campaign.

Yes, but you might ask how to run a heist* or naval combat game mid-game.

* A mid-game heist was the specific example given in the OP.

 

[dave2008]

To all (and specifically @Ruin Explorer , @Hussar , @Paul Farquhar, & @Aldarc ):

I apologize if I upset or offended anyone that was not my intent. I am to depressed currently to actually produce anything creative so I am trying to engage with the community I love through these boards instead. I jumped on this thread to give support to the OP, not argue with my fellow community members. I've already gotten blocked by Morrus, I don't wished to be blocked by any of you. Instead of giving me some enjoyment it is just depressing me further. I will leave this discussion with this:

We are all correct from our own perspective. It is not a "I'm right and your wrong" scenario. We should just agree to disagree on the details at this point.

Sorry for any inconvenience.

 

[loverdrive]

I'm honestly kinda baffled by how lightly some people here take inventing rules lol

Like, yeah, you can modify rules, but even the basic process of:

1. Figuring out what exactly you want to achieve
2. Checking if you didn't put yourself in a corner by creating a cursed problem (one that has no solution, because it's born out of inherently incompatible promises)
3. Coming up with good indicators of the idea actually working
4. Gathering data
5. Analyzing data

Is like... hours of work. And with each new modification, you open another can of worms, and analysis becomes even harder, because now you need to keep track of each rule influence... That's not something I would do, if I don't actually intend doing design stuff, instead, of, y'know, just running the damn thing.

And that's not even including handling edge-cases and coming up with actual wordings.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The analogy is oversimplified. A better analogy would be:

I am using a 20 oz hammer to put nails in a wall. I am used the hammer, it is comfortable and it allows me to frame a lot of walls quickly and efficiently. However, while building this house I come to a beam of engineered lumber that is particularly tough. A heavier 32 oz hammer might be better to drive nails into it, but what I have on hand is my trusty old 20 oz hammer. It is better, IMO, to swing a bit harder (or more) to drive in a few nails on this beam than drive to the hardware store and buy a new hammer. Particularly when the 20 oz hammer works better for me on the rest of the framing.

No it isn't, you have missed the point.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm honestly kinda baffled by how lightly some people here take inventing rules lol

Like, yeah, you can modify rules, but even the basic process of:

1. Figuring out what exactly you want to achieve
2. Checking if you didn't put yourself in a corner by creating a cursed problem (one that has no solution, because it's born out of inherently incompatible promises)
3. Coming up with good indicators of the idea actually working
4. Gathering data
5. Analyzing data

Is like... hours of work. And with each new modification, you open another can of worms, and analysis becomes even harder, because now you need to keep track of each rule influence... That's not something I would do, if I don't actually intend doing design stuff, instead, of, y'know, just running the damn thing.

And that's not even including handling edge-cases and coming up with actual wordings.

Well, in defense of those who have suggested it, there is a difference between modifying a rule, and reskinning an orc into a Klingon, which I think is what they are really talking about.

Which I think is where some people aren't understanding something: genre is genre, game system is game system. You can reskin most RPGs to run a game in a different genre, but they remain the same game wearing a different skin.

 

[dave2008]

I'm honestly kinda baffled by how lightly some people here take inventing rules lol

Like, yeah, you can modify rules, but even the basic process of:

1. Figuring out what exactly you want to achieve
2. Checking if you didn't put yourself in a corner by creating a cursed problem (one that has no solution, because it's born out of inherently incompatible promises)
3. Coming up with good indicators of the idea actually working
4. Gathering data
5. Analyzing data

Is like... hours of work. And with each new modification, you open another can of worms, and analysis becomes even harder, because now you need to keep track of each rule influence... That's not something I would do, if I don't actually intend doing design stuff, instead, of, y'know, just running the damn thing.

And that's not even including handling edge-cases and coming up with actual wordings.

Most people don't need to do all of that for their table, and that is what we are talking about. Personally when we house rule we don't do steps 2-5. We:

1. Identify the issue.
2. Come up with a rule or guide to resolve the issue
3. Play the game.

Now, if #2 doesn't work (for whatever reason) we change it or drop it.

 

[Imaro]

Most people don't need to do all of that for their table, and that is what we are talking about. Personally when we house rule we don't do steps 2-5. We:

1. Identify the issue.
2. Come up with a rule or guide to resolve the issue
3. Play the game.

Now, if #2 doesn't work (for whatever reason) we change it or drop it.

Pretty much this... I'm not professionally designing something for publication and sale... I am designing something for my home game with my family & friends who I know well enough that, even if the design isn't airtight, I can put something together/steal something/adapt/etc. that will work well enough and that they will have fun with.

 

[Campbell]

Here's my personal bugaboo. It feels like people who are fans of only modern D&D want the game to be respected for the things only it brings to the table, but seem unwilling to accept that other games do anything better. They often talk about how easy (do it without a problem) it is to do things that I personally know are quite difficult. It shows a basic lack of respect for both the designers of other games as well as the players and GMs who have spent measurable amounts of time developing skill with those games.

The OP may not have meant to be insulting, but framing things in terms of "bespoke genre" games as if D&D was at once possessing unique strengths and broadly flexible in a way somehow other games are not is really not the best tack to take. It's basically coming out swinging.

 

[Vaalingrade]

That is not at all what is being described in the OP or this thread in general. Perhaps someone has suggested something so ridiculous and I missed it, but that it not the point of the OP or this thread.

The OP and especially a LOT of responses really smack of 'why do people keeps suggesting I use a tool designed for the job? Jury-rigging is perfect' rather than 'why do people keep suggesting tools designed for the job in my threads about jury-rigging'.

 

[Imaro]

Here's my personal bugaboo. It feels like people who are fans of only modern D&D want the game to be respected for the things only it brings to the table, but seem unwilling to accept that other games do anything better. They often talk about how easy (do it without a problem) it is to do things that I personally know are quite difficult. It shows a basic lack of respect for both the designers of other games as well as the players and GMs who have spent measurable amounts of time developing skill with those games.

The OP may not have meant to be insulting, but framing things in terms of "bespoke genre" games as if D&D was at once possessing unique strengths and broadly flexible in a way somehow other games are not is really not the best tack to take. It's basically coming out swinging.

Funny that because I in turn often see D&D lauded by non-fans or semi-fans as the game that only got coming to the market first right... or that isn't particularly good at anything or more commonly the game that people play because they just don't know any better...

Look, I'm sorry you find D&D so hard to mod but unless you are straight up calling people liars I think it would be better not to presume that because you find something hard that they in turn must also find it hard. There has been no disrespect of designers or of players skilled in other games, where are you even getting that from?

Framing the title as he did was because he was speaking about D&D specifically and in reference to using it as opposed to games made for a specific use in certain instances... that's what bespoke actually means, made for a particular user or purpose... how are you taking offense to that? I think for some the games they choose to play are intrinsically tied into a feeling of superiority when it comes to D&D... and when someone even hints that they are having as good a time as they are or that they don't need said games as opposed to D&D to have a good time... it's taken as an affront and blown way out of proportion.