D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[doctorbadwolf]

It is. If you are in a situation where you need to knock in a nail but you don't have a hammer, then you could use the butt end of a screwdriver, or your shoe, and you might manage to do the job. But it will be a lot easier if you use a tool that is designed for that job.

As others have described, it’s more like using the hammer I have instead of getting a more specialized hammer, and what I describe as what I do is indeed analogous to getting a screwdriver when I need to screw something, and then going back to the hammer.

Another good analogy would be a job where self tapping screws are the specialized tool relevant to the job, but I’m not up to going to the store for them, so I just drill the hole and then use the screwdriver bit on my power drill.

D&D is a tool for telling stories. I’m telling stories. I’m using the right general type of tool for the job, I’m just not going out and getting the specialized tool if I can make the general use tool work instead. I have plenty of specialized tools (both in the analogy and IRL), and I like using them when they’re appropriate, but I’m always going to go take the time to unpack them when I can more quickly just use a hammer or screwdriver or ratchet to get the job done to my satisfaction.

It comes off as incredibly elitist and close minded. "Oh, you can do anything with 5e! You must never, EVER tell me not to use 5e to do something because 5e can do EVERYTHING and do it BETTER than ANY OTHER SYSTEM."

And you wonder why you are getting push back?

I’ve never said that.

Wait... what? Dim light is only disadvantage on perception checks based on sight.

Le sigh...for goodness sake. Well, then, clearly if someone who knows the rules of the game mentions enforcing disadvantage in dim light, that is what they’re referring to.
Im not going to engage directly and point by point with the rest of your post because it is a rant.
I will address a few ideas.
First, the whole vision nitpick. A character with darkvision still has disadvantage in darkness, because they treat it as dim light. Enforcing that helps create the tension and fear of the scenario. Also Warlocks don’t see better in dim light, so unless they have darkvision that ability will only take them so far, and they’ll still have allies who need light either way.

Re: the advice thing, and taking offense at someone not appreciating your advice to not do a thing because you tried it and it didn’t work for you. It’s gain about how you give the advice. If you tell someone that your experience is that it doesn’t work in D&D, and either leave it at that or describe why it didn’t work, without just telling them “D&D cant do that play something else”, they probably won’t take offense. They also probably won’t change their mind about running horror in D&D, but going the other way won’t make them change their kind either. They will be aware of some of the pitfalls that they need to plan for, though, which is helpful.

Or, if they wanted to play horror, they could play a system that doesn't require you to strip out 3/4 of the rules, nerf the characters into the ground and basically rewrite every single class from the ground up.

D&D doesn't require that. I’ve seen horror done in 5e. It doesn’t require taking things out of the game. It requires a “trap hook” that makes it impossible to just leave, and an environment and creature(s) tailored to force the PCs to be clever and lucky in order to survive. It’s easier at lower levels, but still possible at higher levels.

Would you be equally upset if I said "Fate can't do horror" or "Fate can't do D&D-esque fantasy adventure"? Or is that flummoxed ire only reserved for when that "bespoke" system is 5e D&D?

Flummoxed =\= upset. You came into this thread angry and aggressive, and have been nothing but combative ever since, taking umbrage with every little thing, taking the most negative possible outlook on the posts of anyone who disagrees with you.

It’s exhausting. Please stop.

Yes, but you might ask how to run a heist* or naval combat game mid-game.

* A mid-game heist was the specific example given in the OP.

Yes, though I would say that the planning stage can become effectively “mid-campaign” at a certain point, in terms of how likely a group is to change systems from the planned game.

And that's not even including handling edge-cases and coming up with actual wordings.

So, IME, having done it quite a lot in 5e, and to some degree in most games I’ve run, you don’t need to do nearly that much work.

The balance of 5e is just not fragile. The game is roughly balanced, not finely balanced, and that works in the favor of adding or changing things. It’s not just that, though. 5e, unlike other editions, doesn’t change accuracy math much over levels, level 1 characters can hit high CR critters without critting, which is impossible in at least the last two editions, damage by level is very transparent on the PC side, and IME it’s easy to eyeball what non-damage effects belong at what levels, generally. The action economy is also pretty easy to grok.

All those things mean that when I make a houserule, I generally get what I expect from it, and in the cases where I don’t, it’s easy to adjust and keep playing.

It is completely valid to not want to mess with any of that, of course.

 

[Steampunkette]

Allow me to weigh in, at long last...

Bespoke Games (That is, games hand-crafted to excel at certain functions, styles, or combinations thereof) are awesome at their kind of thing.

Like D&D. Which is awesome at presenting a very specific form of high fantasy morality play centered largely around combat with some roleplaying and exploration features built in to allow it to be somewhat flexible in whether your encounters are in a Dungeon or a Forest environment.

Does that mean that D&D is incapable of doing other styles of story/encounters/gameplay? Not really. Not even by a large margin. It just means you're going to be altering the game to various degrees to make it work. And "Heists" aren't really doing much in the way of altering the game to any degree, since it's just a specific series of encounters (Several of which may involve combat).

But in the event that you're going to try and tell a story that doesn't fit into any aspect of the high fantasy morality play centered largely around combat, you're likely better off grabbing a different system to use.

And some of those systems are INTENSELY comprehensive, to the point of overwhelming D&D's native functionality. But they tend to do it by being incredibly rules-complex or deeply modular (like GURPS).

That doesn't mean D&D Sucks. It doesn't mean D&D is better than other game systems.

Except FATAL. Everything is better than FATAL, though, because it's just such a low bar to trip over.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

As others have described, it’s more like using the hammer I have instead of getting a more specialized hammer,

No, it isn't. I can tell that you haven't played many RPGs that are not D&D, but they play far more differently from each other than "different types of hammer". It's more like a hammer and a handsaw.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

For low magic, you have to remove 3/4 of the classes, and about 3/4 of the monsters as well. Which means, that, well, I might as well play another game, because what I've got left sure isn't D&D 5e anymore.

How on earth does removing the Spellcasting classes make it not D&D 5e? What a wild claim! If the players just choose to play on fighters, rogues, and monks, because that’s what they all wanted to play, is that not D&D 5e? If someone runs a game that is all full casters with some unifying campaign theme or other that would make a non spellcaster a third wheel in the intended story, is that not D&D 5e?

Company scale combat - such as what you see on ships - does not work in 5e, FOR ME.

Sure. No, imagine that I’ve made a thread asking for advice on running ship combat. I state my goals for what I want from ship combat, and explain that I’m planning a naval exploration campaign of D&D. If you come in and say, “Whenive tried this, I’ve run into these problems, and wasn’t able to fix them” the OP is very unlikely to be offended, and I would roll my eyes at them if they did get offended.
If you instead say “Ship combat in D&D doesn't work. You’re better of playing a different game.” The OP would rightly be annoyed at your unhelpful reply.

I feel obligated to reserve a strong dose of accumulated skepticism about any claims that 5e D&D can do everything.

Find such a claim and show it to me, and I will join you in skepticism.

Most people don't need to do all of that for their table, and that is what we are talking about. Personally when we house rule we don't do steps 2-5. We:

1. Identify the issue.
2. Come up with a rule or guide to resolve the issue
3. Play the game.

Now, if #2 doesn't work (for whatever reason) we change it or drop it.

Yes. This. Also thank you for the support in this thread. I may abandon it myself soon, if the tone doesn’t become less combative and go back to the rather interesting and amiable discussion it started out as, but your contributions are appreciated.

Allow me to weigh in, at long last...

Bespoke Games (That is, games hand-crafted to excel at certain functions, styles, or combinations thereof) are awesome at their kind of thing.

Like D&D. Which is awesome at presenting a very specific form of high fantasy morality play centered largely around combat with some roleplaying and exploration features built in to allow it to be somewhat flexible in whether your encounters are in a Dungeon or a Forest environment.

Does that mean that D&D is incapable of doing other styles of story/encounters/gameplay? Not really. Not even by a large margin. It just means you're going to be altering the game to various degrees to make it work. And "Heists" aren't really doing much in the way of altering the game to any degree, since it's just a specific series of encounters (Several of which may involve combat).

But in the event that you're going to try and tell a story that doesn't fit into any aspect of the high fantasy morality play centered largely around combat, you're likely better off grabbing a different system to use.

And some of those systems are INTENSELY comprehensive, to the point of overwhelming D&D's native functionality. But they tend to do it by being incredibly rules-complex or deeply modular (like GURPS).

That doesn't mean D&D Sucks. It doesn't mean D&D is better than other game systems.

Except FATAL. Everything is better than FATAL, though, because it's just such a low bar to trip over.

I agree with all of this. I see 5e D&D significantly more broadly than your description of it, since especially the morality play aspect is completely optional and not enforced by the rules, but yes, it’s default mode is a fantasy story with lots of fighting presented in a series of distinct encounters. We can get into the weeds on stuff like whether taking out a sentry is an encounter, and I probably use skills a lot more than a lot of other groups, and a lot of how I run D&D isnt traditional, but that’s all just shop talk.

No, it isn't. I can tell that you haven't played many RPGs that are not D&D, but they play far more differently from each other than "different types of hammer". It's more like a hammer and a handsaw.

Except I have, and they’re all (well, very nearly. I’m not sure The Quiet Year really tells a story, depending on how you define story, for instance) tools to tell stories.

But if you’re going to call me a liar, you and I aren’t going to interact anymore.

 

[Steampunkette]

@doctorbadwolf Oh, D&D can be pretty broad...

But it -excels- at the high fantasy morality play centered largely around combat!

Not just because of character alignments, which you can ignore or not, but NPC Alignments being both a narrative and combat function. Outsiders and Undead are often explicitly presented as -fundamentally- good or evil, which is reinforced by spellcasting effects, like the various spells, magic items, and class features that work based on the target's alignment.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Except I have, and they’re all (well, very nearly. I’m not sure The Quiet Year really tells a story, depending on how you define story, for instance) tools to tell stories.

So are movies. Can you use D&D to make a movie instead of using a movie camera?

Hammers and saws are both tools to build a house. It doesn't make them the same.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I don't interpret the part you quoted that way. I think you are bringing your own biases to your interpretation (which we all do of course). Now I could see you conclude: D&D is a better option for a person who asked for advice on modifying D&D to fit a particular genre. That is a qualified "better" in line with the spirit of the OP and thread IMO. Though I personally interrupted the OP even more narrowly as: When I am playing D&D and I want to change the genre it is more helpful to get advice on how to do that in D&D instead of advice to switch systems. The OP even used their Eberron game as an example. They are playing D&D. Advice to switch systems mid stream because one thinks D&D can't handle a genre is not useful in that context. That is the point of the thread in my OP.

I mean the person who wrote the post as repeatedly said that was not their intent (D&D iss better at a particular genre than a game designed for the genre). So even if that is how your interpreted the OP, the author has told you that is not what they meant. Why do you feel the need to continue trying to tell the author the meant something different?

Because I think it’s possible to portray more than one idea. I’ve acknowledged that someone telling a poster who’s asked how to incorporate horror into their existing D&D campaign to “just play Call of Cthulhu” is thoughtless. I agree with that part.

What I don’t agree with, and what I think is equally thoughtless, is claiming that D&D can do anything. And although I think @doctorbadwolf has been careful about adding in little qualifiers like “switching systems for one adventure of an ongoing campaign” and so on; it’s all being positioned as part of an ongoing D&D campaign. So having one session be a heist or a horror scenario, of course it doesn’t make sense to switch games. But is that generally what people suggest? I mean it’s the internet, so I’m sure it happens. But you have to just disregard crappy advice like that and move on.

But if you read the examples he’s offered, he’s yet to acknowledge any shortcoming for D&D.

He’s explained how it can do horror, how you can do Aliens with a dragon and an isolated location and a fear effect scale, and so on. Never once has he said something like “wow the stress dice and panic rules for Aliens are much more robust than the rules tweaks I made to D&D to pull off horror; if I wanted a prolonged campaign with those themes that would likely be a better choice.”

 

[Imaro]

Because I think it’s possible to portray more than one idea. I’ve acknowledged that someone telling a poster who’s asked how to incorporate horror into their existing D&D campaign to “just play Call of Cthulhu” is thoughtless. I agree with that part.

What I don’t agree with, and what I think is equally thoughtless, is claiming that D&D can do anything. And although I think @doctorbadwolf has been careful about adding in little qualifiers like “switching systems for one adventure of an ongoing campaign” and so on; it’s all being positioned as part of an ongoing D&D campaign. So having one session be a heist or a horror scenario, of course it doesn’t make sense to switch games. But is that generally what people suggest? I mean it’s the internet, so I’m sure it happens. But you have to just disregard crappy advice like that and move on.

But if you read the examples he’s offered, he’s yet to acknowledge any shortcoming for D&D.

He’s explained how it can do horror, how you can do Aliens with a dragon and an isolated location and a fear effect scale, and so on. Never once has he said something like “wow the stress dice and panic rules for Aliens are much more robust than the rules tweaks I made to D&D to pull off horror; if I wanted a prolonged campaign with those themes that would likely be a better choice.”

Probably because most posters are still arguing about the absolutes... D&D can't do this vs. D&D can't do this as well as...

I mean I find it kind of weird that posters are claiming D&D can't do horror and the next book coming out for it addresses and is a campaign setting exactly for that and if the previews are any indication one that deals with a variety of horror types in the game. @Hussar will probably be along shortly to ROTFLMAO us about how the new Ravenloft book also isn't 5e...

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Sure. No, imagine that I’ve made a thread asking for advice on running ship combat. I state my goals for what I want from ship combat, and explain that I’m planning a naval exploration campaign of D&D. If you come in and say, “Whenive tried this, I’ve run into these problems, and wasn’t able to fix them” the OP is very unlikely to be offended, and I would roll my eyes at them if they did get offended.
If you instead say “Ship combat in D&D doesn't work. You’re better of playing a different game.” The OP would rightly be annoyed at your unhelpful reply.

What is the difference between creating a set of completely new, non-suck naval combat rules for your D&D game from scratch, and copy-pasting the rules from a professionally designed non-suck naval combat game into your D&D game?

How is saying "game X has good naval combat, why not use that?" not a helpful suggestion?

 

[Steampunkette]

I'd also like to weigh in on the "Hammer" Analogy.

The analogy assumes that every game system is a single tool which may or may not be specialized. It might be more accurate to think of different systems as different tool-belts. Some with specific power tools, others with manual versions of the same.

D&D has got a perfectly serviceable hammer, and a variety of different more specific hammers (Representing Combat) but it's got a single flat-tip screwdriver to represent travel and exploration. Sure you can use it for a phillps head screw but you'll have to be more careful to avoid stripping the head.

Another system might have a multi-tool with different screwdriver heads that are all more functional than a single screw driver, but more awkward to use because a screwdriver shape fits the hand nicely, and a rubber mallet instead of a good solid hammer. While a third system has a full on cordless power tool with multiple heads to cover each type of screw including Torx (But, honestly, when are you ever going to use a Torx screw to hang a painting?! You're not Elon Musk), no hammer to speak of, but also a series of specialized saws and cutting implements (To represent social systems). They're not needed for this particular painting hanging, but when you need a saw..? HOO BOY is that the toolbelt you grab!

And then you have GURPS. Which is an entire garage worth of different tools to be used in any situation but there's no way you're gonna load all the ones you actually need into a single toolbelt so you'll have to keep going back up and down the stairs to get the next set you need and honestly at that point you get so frustrated you start using screwdrivers to hammer in nails.