D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Ovinomancer]

Well, truth be told there's also nothing much given on how to design and-or run any other kind of adventure. Heists are not unique here.

Adventures of any kind are generally left to the GM to design, maybe using cues from published adventures past and present (though I'll quickly concede there's few if any examples of published D&D modules featuring heist-like scenarios, so GMs would be a bit more on thier own here).

I don't see a heist and a combat as being on the same level of granularity; in that while a combat can be an element within a heist (or within any other type of adventure) it's exceedingly rare that a combat is the whole adventure in itself.

There's actually pretty good support for some things, like dungeons, or overland travel, but, yes, D&D generally leaves a lot to the individual GM to figure out on their own outside of these things. It's one of the reasons that adventure paths are such a profitable product for the last few iterations of D&D (4e a notable exception, but replaced nicely by Pathfinder).

 

[tetrasodium]

Well, truth be told there's also nothing much given on how to design and-or run any other kind of adventure. Heists are not unique here.

Adventures of any kind are generally left to the GM to design, maybe using cues from published adventures past and present (though I'll quickly concede there's few if any examples of published D&D modules featuring heist-like scenarios, so GMs would be a bit more on thier own here).

I don't see a heist and a combat as being on the same level of granularity; in that while a combat can be an element within a heist (or within any other type of adventure) it's exceedingly rare that a combat is the whole adventure in itself.

One of the big hurdles that advice handles with heists is that most people have never given serious thought to anything similar & think security is generally good everywhere that puts on a show (it's almost always gobsmackingly awful). dungeon crawls & hero journeys to go deal with a bad guy tend to be pretty common in books/comics/tv/movies too. The only heist shows I can think of that do much in the way of showing a heist are leverage & maybe some episodes of burn notice. There are a few movies but they aren't usually very clear if you don't know what your looking for in them

 

[Hussar]

Well, truth be told there's also nothing much given on how to design and-or run any other kind of adventure. Heists are not unique here.

Adventures of any kind are generally left to the GM to design, maybe using cues from published adventures past and present (though I'll quickly concede there's few if any examples of published D&D modules featuring heist-like scenarios, so GMs would be a bit more on thier own here).

I don't see a heist and a combat as being on the same level of granularity; in that while a combat can be an element within a heist (or within any other type of adventure) it's exceedingly rare that a combat is the whole adventure in itself.

Really? My DMG is replete with pages and examples of how to build a dungeon. Entire chapters devoted to it. And entire chapter on encounter design as well.

Including an actual play example in the DMG.

I’d say they give rather extensive examples on how to build down dungeon adventures.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I think older editions, up to and maybe/maybe not including 2e, with their discrete-subsystem rulesets and modularity, are more flexible than may be the newer editions. It comes down to a) ease of kitbash-ability and b) the rules not getting in the way so much when trying something different.

Put another way, I think I can twist 1e to do more or less whatever I want it to without it fighting back all that much. 3e-4e-5e, I'm not so sure.

I think it varies by edition and by what you want to try and do. I mean, prior to later AD&D/2E characters didn't even have skills, with the exception of the thief. So the lack of rules in earlier editions may be seen as an opportunity for some hacking.

But considering how interwoven a lot of the components of early D&D were, and how their removal in the 2E era left the game a bit rudderless and forced the GM to really take a strong hand, I don’t know how easily hacked the early stuff really is. It all exists in a kind of homeostasis that is easily disrupted.

I would say that the same would apply to 5E. Yes, you can bolt things on to the chassis, but very often that will throw other things out of whack.

And then there’s the fact that D&D mechanics are about 75% to 90% focused on combat. That promotes fighting as the solution to problems.

If you wanted D&D to do heists well, you’d need more than just Stealth and Deception skills. Class abilities that are designed with this in mind, spells that are more focused on it, feats, magic items, etc. Yes some that exist would be fine, but there would need to be more.

Think of the D&D combat system. All the game components related to combat. Now, picture an equivalent heist system. That’s what would be needed.

Now, is this needed in most D&D games? No. You can do occasionally heisty type things with what’s there, or by adding a bit. But if you were going to run a Thieves Guild campaign where the game would revolve not around killing monsters, but around stealing stuff and similar jobs, then it would require a lot of work.

So much so that a recommendation of “maybe you should play Blades in the Dark or Dusk City Outlaws” is a very valid recommendation.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Fussy point, perhaps, but something not working in 5e doesn't mean it doesn't work in D&D. There's numerous other editions...

very true.

There's nothing on how to run a heist, what challenges to set up for a heist, or any interesting consequences. The skills you note are present, yes, but how do I apply them well to run a heist?

All of this ends up being ad hoc by the GM, running on whatever structure the GM comes up with, with no support for it in the rules. Meanwhile, if I want to run a combat, I have detailed rules on how to do so, but also on how to build a combat encounter, assets to use in that encounter, and even support on how to build out a day's worth of combats. Where is this kind of support for heists?

This is true, though there are 3pp solutions. It’s be nice if 5e had more advice in the core books for running different kinds of campaigns and adventures, though. Really nice.

One of the big hurdles that advice handles with heists is that most people have never given serious thought to anything similar & think security is generally good everywhere that puts on a show (it's almost always gobsmackingly awful). dungeon crawls & hero journeys to go deal with a bad guy tend to be pretty common in books/comics/tv/movies too. The only heist shows I can think of that do much in the way of showing a heist are leverage & maybe some episodes of burn notice. There are a few movies but they aren't usually very clear if you don't know what your looking for in them

I think that depends on whether your group cares at all about how “realistic” their heist adventure is, and what kinda of gameplay the group enjoys or doesn’t enjoy.

And then there’s the fact that D&D mechanics are about 75% to 90% focused on combat. That promotes fighting as the solution to problems.

For some folks. For others it tells them that combat is where balance matters in this system, and other aspects of play are directed socially, rather than mechanically.

Think of the D&D combat system. All the game components related to combat. Now, picture an equivalent heist system. That’s what would be needed.

I would consider such a system detrimental to my group running a heist, frankly. Generally, IME that sort of thing when applied to anything more variable and narrative than combat leads to a system that does a single model of the thing, and isn’t great for a group that wants to do the thing in a different model. I’m glad there are games that model things hat way for the people who want them. I’m also happy the game I play most often doesn’t try to do so.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Re; heists, and flashbacks. I simplified this from what I’ve seen in other systems. Each PC describes before the heist starts what general approach they want to take, and what “role” they want to fill. Then each PC gets 1 Inspiration. They can spend Inspiration to narrate or ask me (and other players) to help them narrate, a scene in which they;

• Planned for this
• Made this part of The Plan (ie, the reversal. It looks like they are gonna get caught, but the security guard actually passes them a package that contains an item they need to complete the next step, having been paid off beforehand. This was the plan “all along”)
• Planned for to use this complication to make room for someone else

Etc.

They can gain Inspiration by failing a roll, surprising me or the other players, or taking a big swing.

My favorite example from the heist we did was, the Kobold Wizard and the Firbolg Bard deposited a fake of the prize in the same bank as the actual prize. A complication arose from failed rolls involving the character who was supposed to physically break in to the bank. The Kobold Wizard then initiated a scene in which the Bard went to the bank to check on his package and deposit another package, being super fussy and terrible about it, a real “Karen”. During that scene, the Kobold was hidden in the Firbolgs bag, and the Firbolg left him in the vault.

Then the player was kinda stuck on how to proceed, and another player suggested that setting off the alarm was somehow necessary, and the Kobold had to be inside the vault when it happened to hack the arcane security system, so I called for some arcana and investigation checks, and the little Wizard waited for the security system to reset, interrupted the startup with a pre-programmed code drsgonahard that hid a security hack relating to the item recognition spell built into the system as it rebooted, and then waited to be picked up by Firbolg Bard in the morning, along with the prize, which he had swapped with the fake while in the vault. The hack worked, and the security spells read the prize as the object that our guys had placed in the vault.

 

[Hussar]

Heh, I remember getting into this about Planescape. To me, Planescape is a fantastic setting that is totally unsuited to D&D. I would LOVE to play Planescape using something like FATE. And, before people start jumping up and down on me for this, I have 3 reasons why I think something like FATE (there are other games that would work too) is a better fit:

1. Classes. The classes in D&D don't lend themselves to Planescape. The point of the setting is an examination of philosophy and good and evil. Fighters, rogues, barbarians, and wizards contribute so little to this conversation simply because nothing about those classes have any real connection to the themes of the game. You wind up with so much stuff that is extraneous to what the system needs. Who really cares that your fighter has three attacks per round when trying to convince that modron (stupid autocorrect changed that to moron - hrmmm) of your point of view?

2. Skills. The skill system in D&D is totally unsuited to the setting. Say I'm trying to proselytise to the masses. How many people are interested? How much of an impact do I have? Even things like 5e's downtime activities are so bare bones that they don't really cover this. The scale is just wrong.

3. Alignment system - ok, this one is more for earlier versions of D&D, but, it still applies. Planescape is predicated on the idea that the notions of good and evil are in flux and it's trying to find answers to "what is good or evil". The alignment system gives you that answer. It tells you that angels are good and devils are evil. And it defines what it means by that. There's no point in trying to define good and evil in D&D, the game already has the answers.

Now, these are the reasons, FOR ME, why Planescape doesn't work in D&D. Yes, I realize there are people jumping up and down in front of their computer screens to argue why I'm wrong. I simply don't care. These reasons are my reasons and I'm very unlikely to be persuaded to give them up. So, for me, if someone asked how to do Planescape in 5e, my first answer would be, "Don't. Use a system like Fate which will actually fit the conceits of the setting far better than trying to pound a square D&D into a round Planescape hole.".

 

[hawkeyefan]

For some folks. For others it tells them that combat is where balance matters in this system, and other aspects of play are directed socially, rather than mechanically.

Yeah, Rulings Not Rules.

But there are many people who want rules to play by. If I’m playing a court intrigue game, then I want rules that will make a court event like a masquerade ball engaging. And I don’t mean that I want rules that leave like 80% of this up to the GM.

I would consider such a system detrimental to my group running a heist, frankly. Generally, IME that sort of thing when applied to anything more variable and narrative than combat leads to a system that does a single model of the thing, and isn’t great for a group that wants to do the thing in a different model. I’m glad there are games that model things hat way for the people who want them. I’m also happy the game I play most often doesn’t try to do so.

Sure.

Let’s flip it real quick though.

My game leaves combat to be decided with one die roll. Roll a d6 and add your level, your opponent rolls a d6 and adds his level/HD. Highest wins!

I find this to be just as engaging as a combat that uses initiative and combat maneuvers and Fireballs and saving throws and all that. Such rules are detrimental.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah, Rulings Not Rules.

But there are many people who want rules to play by. If I’m playing a court intrigue game, then I want rules that will make a court event like a masquerade ball engaging. And I don’t mean that I want rules that leave like 80% of this up to the GM.

Of course. As I said a couple pages or so ago, different groups want different things, which is why unclarified advice to just not do something isn’t helpful. If I and @loverdrive are giving eachother advice about running something, or planning a campaign, or a lot of other things, we need to clarify why a thing works or doesn’t work for each of us, because we have very different gameplay and system preferences as well as comfort levels with different dynamics of play. Me telling her, without any clarificaction and worded as if I am telling her what to do or that I know better than her, to “just hack spellcasting”, is completely useless for her.

Starting a conversation about the Spellcasting systems and different things I’ve tried, and how they’ve worked or failed, might be useful, and is at least respectful.

Sure.

Let’s flip it real quick though.

My game leaves combat to be decided with one die roll. Roll a d6 and add your level, your opponent rolls a d6 and adds his level/HD. Highest wins!

I find this to be just as engaging as a combat that uses initiative and combat maneuvers and Fireballs and saving throws and all that. Such rules are detrimental.

Okay.

 

[Hussar]

And one more thought @dave2008.

First, I'm really sorry. I was incredibly rude. Thank you for your suggestions. They are actually very good suggestions and they most certainly would work.

However, in the context of this thread, I'm not sure that they are particularly "easy". After all, if I was to run a low magic D&D game again, I would use 4e, Martial only. PHB only actually. Right there, I've got four complete classes - ranger, fighter, rogue, warlord, which cover all the roles except controller, which, frankly, isn't really needed anyway. A five person party of 2 fighters, a ranger, rogue and warlord would work perfectly fine.

That gives me all the tactical depth I want in combat. I don't need any supplements and I know that it will function perfectly fine. Heck, if I wanted to be really good, I could simply add the Inherent Bonuses rule and I'm done. To me, that's about as simple as it comes.

Or, rather, I find that a far more simple solution than cherry pick material from four different supplements which still leaves me without the tactical depth in combat that I want - even with feats, you cannot make an area attack for example with a non-magic character, so my "sweep sand into their eyes to blind them still doesn't work in 5e without making up a ruling at the time - and quite possibly has all sorts of knock on issues like healing and whatnot.

So, yeah, if someone asked, "How can I do low magic in my 5e game?" my first response is always going to be, "Don't. It really doesn't work worth a damn. 5e is set up to be an extremely high magic game with spells and spell effects being used every single round and in every single combat. You'd be far better to use 4e instead."

I'm still not seeing how that is rude or offensive.