D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Imaro]

This can be helped if you have some kind of system to allow a certain number of auto-successes on necessary rolls. The plan should obviously work to create a situation where a minimal number of things are left to chance and thus rolls.

Also this is absolutely an area D&D falls flat on its face on, because it has skill checks which are both A) binary pass/fail, and B) extremely random with no centering whatsoever, so there's basically like a 30% chance that your skill investment even interacts with your roll at all in any meaningful way (i.e. not so low it doesn't matter, nor so high it doesn't matter). If there was ever any argument against using D&D 5E for heists, it was the basic design of D&D 5E's skill system. Though "min 10" thing Rogues can do can make a huge difference if they're high enough level and have it in the right skill.

Nope this is just one option for skills that a DM can use in 5e. The DMG has others.

The other big reason not to use D&D is that D&D has absolutely no rules for knocking out or killing someone from surprise. I'm going to work on a version of the Execution Attack rules from Worlds Without Number if I run any future D&D heists to deal with that (it's OSR so should work well-ish).

This on the other hand is technically correct... though there's nothing that prevents the DM from allowing it or the PC's preparing their ranged weapons with a drug or poison that does this (which I would assume they would do if they know there are numerous guards).

EDIT: @Manbearcat One of the problems with these ad-hoc create a scenario and I'll predict how it turns out is that you don't have all of the information or possibilities accounted for both from the DM side and the player side.

 

[Thomas Shey]

This can be helped if you have some kind of system to allow a certain number of auto-successes on necessary rolls. The plan should obviously work to create a situation where a minimal number of things are left to chance and thus rolls.

This is one of the areas where the fact caper stories have a number of, at best, limited points of failure can make them difficult to play out in a way that looks like the genre involved in most games. While some failures are okay (they produce most of the drama in the source genre, after all), but you usually only have an opportunity or two to recover before the rest of the situation is, as planned at least, irrecoverable. As you say, you have to really minimize the number of necessary rolls (especially in a system with a big linear failure probability) to make it workable.

Also this is absolutely an area D&D falls flat on its face on, because it has skill checks which are both A) binary pass/fail, and B) extremely random with no centering whatsoever, so there's basically like a 30% chance that your skill investment even interacts with your roll at all in any meaningful way (i.e. not so low it doesn't matter, nor so high it doesn't matter). If there was ever any argument against using D&D 5E for heists, it was the basic design of D&D 5E's skill system. Though "min 10" thing Rogues can do can make a huge difference if they're high enough level and have it in the right skill.

This is a problem with pretty much all big linear die roll systems to one extent or another.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

While I agree that's true, any argument to the contrary comes down to people being unable to learn what they want and, essentially, mind reading their actual motives. There are cases where trying to draw too many conclusions is not a good idea (how popular the mechanics of D&D proper are is essentially impossible to determine because of the industry footprint and networking factor its had from day one, and some similar processes may occur with some licensed games; other factors so perturb process its essentially impossible to tease them out), but I think to suggest that the design and choices of a system have no significant impact is a trip I can't follow you on.

I guess my feeling is that, with no insult to D&D, it's success and dominance, particularly in 3E, is pretty much conclusive proof that good design and accessibility are as nothing to name recognition and first mover advantage. d20 really reinforced that for me too. So many godawful designs selling so many copies simply because people thought they didn't have to learn a new system (when some of the systems had differences from core 3.XE which were more complex than entire PtbA systems today are!).

I'm absolutely not, as you can see above. But I'm also not accepting that its all about marketing, especially in the modern period.

It's obviously not all marketing, but I feel like that plus name recognition and first mover advantage are huge. Things are improving, but they took weirdly long to do so. It feels to me like only now are we beginning to get back into a 1990s-ish situation where significant numbers of people who are less-intense RPG players are considering non-D&D RPGs, and that's probably in part simply because 5E has brought such huge numbers of people to the hobby (also in part due to social media of course).

Honestly, its much like the issue with games that want "narration" to get a bonus on certain rolls. Even people who aren't opposed to it in principal just sometimes want to roll the damn dice.

Sure, but I guess what I'm skeptical of is "just wanting to roll the dice"/"not wanting to explain" people as existing as a sort of constant group of specific people (and interested in heist games), rather than being literally everyone, just only some of the time (ranging from like 1% of the time to 70% of the time depending on the person). All of us "just want to roll the dice" sometimes (or almost all of us). But I've never met a player who only wanted to roll the dice, well, not an adult anyway (I mean that in a literal way, not an insulting metaphorical way)!

The problem is that the skill system isn't even that good for some uses you'd want to make it serve. The skills are too broad or too narrow, too reliable or not reliable enough. This is true of a number of other elements in the game, too (magic being the standout; the historical set up of D&D magic being (usually) fire-and-forget exception based spells can end up serving a number of purposes, shall we say, badly.

Definitely if I had to pick the biggest problem with 5E for an awful lot of things it'd be the trashy skill system. It does manage to be all those things - though "too reliable" is limited to Passive Perception/Insight.

This is a problem with pretty much all big linear die roll systems to one extent or another.

Yup I really dislike most big linear die roll systems because of this.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

The problem is that the skill system isn't even that good for some uses you'd want to make it serve. The skills are too broad or too narrow, too reliable or not reliable enough. This is true of a number of other elements in the game, too (magic being the standout; the historical set up of D&D magic being (usually) fire-and-forget exception based spells can end up serving a number of purposes, shall we say, badly.

Hasn't really been my experience, usually what you're talking about means the GM is just putting too many checks out.

Personally I like 4e style skill challenges or pf2e style victory points for them.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I guess my feeling is that, with no insult to D&D, it's success and dominance, particularly in 3E, is pretty much conclusive proof that good design and accessibility are as nothing to name recognition and first mover advantage. d20 really reinforced that for me too. So many godawful designs selling so many copies simply because people thought they didn't have to learn a new system (when some of the systems had differences from core 3.XE which were more complex than entire PtbA systems today are!).

Its not impossible, but with some of the discussion I've seen of people who really, really miss the Pathfinder 1e mechanical choices that 2e changed, I think you could be underestimating just how much an itch those choices scratched in some people.

It's obviously not all marketing, but I feel like that plus name recognition and first mover advantage are huge. Things are improving, but they took weirdly long to do so. It feels to me like only now are we beginning to get back into a 1990s-ish situation where significant numbers of people who are less-intense RPG players are considering non-D&D RPGs, and that's probably in part simply because 5E has brought such huge numbers of people to the hobby (also in part due to social media of course).

Eh. I think that's honestly illusory; it just looks like that because D&D is big again so the shadow it casts can occlude how many people are playing other games, mixed with the fact that the explosion of self-publishing means there's less opportunity for any of them to strongly stand out in visibility.

Sure, but I guess what I'm skeptical of is "just wanting to roll the dice"/"not wanting to explain" people as existing as a sort of constant group of specific people (and interested in heist games), rather than being literally everyone, just only some of the time (ranging from like 1% of the time to 70% of the time depending on the person). All of us "just want to roll the dice" sometimes (or almost all of us). But I've never met a player who only wanted to roll the dice, well, not an adult anyway (I mean that in a literal way, not an insulting metaphorical way)!

I'm not suggesting such people are especially interested in heist games, but they can very well be in campaigns where a heist/caper is going to happen once in a while, and when it does they don't want to spend a third of the session setting it up. Its much like a similar element that can happen with puzzles or investigations; those are some people's jam and some people's tedious time waster.

Definitely if I had to pick the biggest problem with 5E for an awful lot of things it'd be the trashy skill system. It does manage to be all those things - though "too reliable" is limited to Passive Perception/Insight.

I wasn't thinking of 5e in particular, but it was certainly possible in some incarnations (3e/PF1e come to mind) with the right builds to ramp up selective skills to the point where in some context failure was simply not going to happen enough to be relevant.

Yup I really dislike most big linear die roll systems because of this.

I used to be a big BRP fan (because the game processes tend to be so naturally intuitive) but as I've gotten older I've gotten pretty disenchanted with them myself.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Hasn't really been my experience, usually what you're talking about means the GM is just putting too many checks out.

That, at best address the "unreliable" end of it. Note the other three I mentioned.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

That, at best address the "unreliable" end of it. Note the other three I mentioned.

The others didnt mention how you found them bad, so they were hard to respond to.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Let me ask those who consider their heist/infiltration scenarios in DND to be successful. What percentage of these scenarios succeed.

I’ll define success as any attempt that does not result in the deaths of 50+% of the inhabitants of the heist location.

All of them, in my (admittedly limited) experience. Maybe a couple dozen?

 

[Manbearcat]

Cool...



1.) A wealthy noble and secret cult leader of an elder sea god has acquired a sentient cursed relic which he keeps in the catacomb temple beneath his manor. The PC's are stealing said relic.


2.) The PC's have found their way to the central chamber of the catacomb temple, an enormous cavern that is flooded with murky sea water and guarded by cult members who have all been mutated by the relic so that they are equal part human and squid. The relic itself is on a small artificially made island in the flooded cavern that can be reached by a thin bridge of damp, brittle coral that stretches from the only adjoining tunnel to the small isle. The relic itself rests on an altar, in the middle of the isle, constructed of shells, barnacles and sea urchin spines that havebeen coated with a potent sea urchin venom. Finally the relic itself being sentient has a connection to the noble and will alert him if it senses that anything is amiss.

Not sure if this was what you were looking for or not. Hopefully it is but if not I'd be willing to take another crack at it with more guidance.

Unfortunately, IME, long before #2, the PC's have failed a stealth check to bypass some guard or other, that guard has immediately raised the alarm, and the PC's have now had to slaughter everyone in the manor just to get to #2 which is immediately a combat encounter. IOW, the heist is basically just one running combat encounter with a largely pointless amount of discussion beforehand.

This can be helped if you have some kind of system to allow a certain number of auto-successes on necessary rolls. The plan should obviously work to create a situation where a minimal number of things are left to chance and thus rolls.

Also this is absolutely an area D&D falls flat on its face on, because it has skill checks which are both A) binary pass/fail, and B) extremely random with no centering whatsoever, so there's basically like a 30% chance that your skill investment even interacts with your roll at all in any meaningful way (i.e. not so low it doesn't matter, nor so high it doesn't matter). If there was ever any argument against using D&D 5E for heists, it was the basic design of D&D 5E's skill system. Though "min 10" thing Rogues can do can make a huge difference if they're high enough level and have it in the right skill.

The other big reason not to use D&D is that D&D has absolutely no rules for knocking out or killing someone from surprise. I'm going to work on a version of the Execution Attack rules from Worlds Without Number if I run any future D&D heists to deal with that (it's OSR so should work well-ish).

Since Hussar has focused on the stealth portion (which is the initial part of this), that is what I'm going to detail here (if you want me to move forward after detailing that, I can...but I just wanted to zoom in on one instance of action resolution).

Lets zoom back out first. Let's say we have a Crew of Shadows (sneak-thiefs and spies) w/ Ghost Echoes as a Crew Special Ability; From weird experience or occult ritual, all crew members gain the ability to see and interact with the ghostly structures, streets, and objects within the echo of Doskvol that exists in the ghost field. During the Information Gathering phase of play, via an occult contact + their Special Ability + some action resolution and resource expenditure (lets say 1 Coin and 1 Stress by a PC), the effort yielded the the point of infiltration (the key detail of the Stealth Score) being an ancient, long-abandoned, freight elevator shaft which connected the outside of the Manor to the catacombs below, but an ancient ritual sealed it off and faded it into the Ghost Field. Being able to see/access it puts them right in the thick of things (spitting them out in the catacombs temple). The intersection of their Crew Special Ability + effort + resource expenditure does 2 things mechanically:

1) It lets them circumvent a stealth op through the manor framing them right into the first obstacle in the catacomb temple.

2) It augments their Engagement Roll (see below).

So lets say the following happened during the Information Gathering phase (this is the recon/planning phase) and we'll add up the dice for the Engagement Roll to initially frame the first obstacle:

1d6 (base)

+1d6 (Particularly bold and daring because the elevator/shaft is old, decrepit, dangerous and this puts them right in the thick of things)

+1d6 (The plan's detail exposes a vulnerability of the target - the point of infiltration lets them work around the manor)

+1d6 (A friend or contact helped them with the recon/info)

- 1d6 (Lets say this Faction is the Crew's Tier +2; Tier 2 vs Tier 4)

So 3d6.

4, 1, 6 (result spread is 1-3 = miss, 4-5 = success w/ complication, 6 = success, 6*2 = crit success)

Success.

Alright, so this means that the Position for this first major obstacle they're facing (I'm using imaro's framing of the situation above) will be Controlled. Position is threat/danger level (how bad a complication might be). That puts them in optimal position (lowest threat) to start their efforts.

GM: Alright. The ancient, Ghost Field elevator shaft empties you out into the central chamber of the catacomb temple, an enormous cavern that is flooded with murky sea water. You can see the green glow of the relic, its illumination giving the entire chamber an eerie hue that catches every dancing shadow. Its difficult to tell from here, but it rests on an aquatic-motif altar in the middle of an artificially made island in the flooded cavern that can be reached by a thin bridge of damp, brittle coral that stretches from the small isle to where the Ghost Elevator spat you out. Next to the altar are two squid-faced abominations, their hands clasped behind their back, heads bowed as a gurgly hymn resounds from the pair.

PLAYER 1 (LURK - basically a D&D Theif/Rogue): Heads bowed huh? Dark cavern? Pretty long bridge?

GM: Oh yeah. Long bridge, right out in the open, so no cover, but lots of concealment given how dark it is. You thinking about sneaking across to the island? That is a long Bridge. If you're going to try to sneak across, you've got 2 things to consider; (i) you're 2 lower tier than them so the Potency of the supernatural powers in this sanctum to detect folks walking in to steal the relic is 2 better than you and (ii)...long bridge and no cover.

So Controlled Position, but Limited (the lowest of the 3 Tiers) Effect to get across. You're going to have to make 3 moves to get across to the island the altar is on w/ Limited Effect.

PLAYER 2 (HOUND - basically a D&D Ranger): Spot (his spectral pet) has ghost-form. I'm going to have him turn into electroplasmic vapor and haunt the other side of the chamber and draw the attention of whatever supernatural power watches over this chamber...and maybe pull the squid-humans over there to investigate...Setup Move from Spot for us to give us +1 Effect.

PLAYER 1 (LURK): Yeah! And if we hustle over there rather than just taking it slow and careful can we trade Position for Effect? So Risky/Standard instead of Controlled/Limited and then Spot gives us +1 Effect for Risky/Great? Group Skirmish Action after Spot does the Setup?

GM: Awesome. Sounds good. Alright, who is leading the Group Action?

PLAYER 2 (HOUND): I'm going to Push (1 Stress for +1d) with Spot so spending 1 Stress on that. I'm already at 3 Stress so that will be 4...

PLAYER 1 (LURK): Alright, I've got 2 Stress so I'll lead the Group Action. I've got 3 in Skirmish, but we need that 6 (the highest roll on a Group Action determines the group's result...any 1-3 rolls means the Leader of the Group Action takes 1 Stress per 1-3 Roll) so I'm going to Push.

GM: Hang on. Let's resolve Spot's Setup Move, but Hound...how about a Devil's Bargain instead of Pushing. You know Hadley Smigglefitz your Vice Purveyor for your Weird (occult/supernatural fetish/taboos/essences) Vice? Well. Your keen, ranger-ey eyes can see in the sick green glow of the relic that the abomination on the left is wearing a collared cape with a brooch that is an absolute lock for Hadley. This thing is so rare. There is no way there are doubles. Is this abomination Hadley? Did this thing kill Hadley and take his stuff? Which would be worse?

Starting a Clock "Where's Hadley"; 4 Ticks and I'm ticking it once since you're Controlled; 1/4 Ticks.

Controlled + Standard for Spot's Setup.

PLAYER 2 (HOUND): It would actually be worse if this thing killed Hadley. Then I'd have to find a new Vice Purveyor. If this thing actually IS Hadley then maybe he was called by this relic and turned into this...thing? Maybe we can knock him out, get him out of here and I can change him back!

I accept your Devil's Bargain.

Spot is Tier 2 but an Expert (Quality +1). 3d6 +1d for the Devil's Bargain so 4d6. Got a 6!

GM: Cool, cool. Alright, if "Where's Hadley" ticks full in this Score, he's dead and this creature killed him. If it doesn't tick full and you bring this abomination back to your lair, you can put in the Downtime Activities to uncurse Hadley.

Spot dissipates into electroplasmic vapors and phantasmally glides to the other side of the room and elicits an eerie, spectral howl. The two creepy squid-men pull their heads up and stop "singing" their gurgley hymn. They move away from the altar to the far end of the isle and peer deeply into the dark.

Simultaneously, the once flat sheen of the water picks up in waves, the chamber flaring to life. The waves move inexorably to the area that Spot has manifested. At the same time the relic's glow pulses ever so slowly. The chamber has come to life but is occupied by Spot for now.

Alright you guys...Risky Great to quietly sprint across to the island where the relic sits on the altar. Get to leading Lurk.

PLAYER 1 (LURK): 4d6 for Skirmish with the Devil's Bargain. Crap, only a 5!

PLAYER 2 (HOUND): 2d6 for Skirmish. 1 and a 3... Sorry Lurk, take 1 Stress.

GM: Alright, Success with Complication. You're there. While the first Abomination is still preoccupied by Spot, the "Abomination maybe/maybe not Hadley" turns back toward the altar as you step off the thin bridge onto the island. I'm ticking your "Where's Hadley" Clock * 1 Hound; 2/4 (a Risky 4/5 should yield 2 Ticks so I've still got Complication to go). From this close, it just seems more likely this weird creature may have killed Hadley rather than it is Hadley. Its a good head taller than Hadley. But who knows. Maybe the transformation alters your size? Its definitely his cloak and brooch though, so you're still not sure. You're still unseen, but you're now Desperate Position (the rest of the Complication) and this thing is about to discover you and you're separated by a good 30 feet! What do you do?

Anyone want to Resist either Complication?

---

After that, maybe Hound resists the clock tick, maybe Lurk resists the Desperate Position, but probably not. You mark 1 xp for an Action Roll under Desperate Position and they've still got plenty of resources to Martial to try to get a 6. The Hound is a ranged specialist with Electroplasmic Ammo, so maybe he fires off a shot (Hunt move) w/ Desperate position, hoping the Electroplasmic Ammo reverses the Abomination back to Hadley.

Who knows.

But yeah that is the gist. Tons of resources/abilities/cohorts/moves/team synergy to martial that enables the resource-and-move-intensive decision-points for the "short game" (tactical for the move making now and to negotiate Position/Effect and change the fiction to enable certain moves), Complication and Risk management moment to moment (negotiating Position and sorting out whether you want to spend Stress to Resist a Complication), and a long-resource-game (you've got to manage several different resources/reservoirs/statuses for the Score at large and the entirety of the play loop and play loops to come simultaneously).

 

[Imaro]

Since Hussar has focused on the stealth portion (which is the initial part of this), that is what I'm going to detail here (if you want me to move forward after detailing that, I can...but I just wanted to zoom in on one instance of action resolution).

Lets zoom back out first. Let's say we have a Crew of Shadows (sneak-thiefs and spies) w/ Ghost Echoes as a Crew Special Ability; From weird experience or occult ritual, all crew members gain the ability to see and interact with the ghostly structures, streets, and objects within the echo of Doskvol that exists in the ghost field. During the Information Gathering phase of play, via an occult contact + their Special Ability + some action resolution and resource expenditure (lets say 1 Coin and 1 Stress by a PC), the effort yielded the the point of infiltration (the key detail of the Stealth Score) being an ancient, long-abandoned, freight elevator shaft which connected the outside of the Manor to the catacombs below, but an ancient ritual sealed it off and faded it into the Ghost Field. Being able to see/access it puts them right in the thick of things (spitting them out in the catacombs temple). The intersection of their Crew Special Ability + effort + resource expenditure does 2 things mechanically:

1) It lets them circumvent a stealth op through the manor framing them right into the first obstacle in the catacomb temple.

2) It augments their Engagement Roll (see below).

So lets say the following happened during the Information Gathering phase (this is the recon/planning phase) and we'll add up the dice for the Engagement Roll to initially frame the first obstacle:

1d6 (base)

+1d6 (Particularly bold and daring because the elevator/shaft is old, decrepit, dangerous and this puts them right in the thick of things)

+1d6 (The plan's detail exposes a vulnerability of the target - the point of infiltration lets them work around the manor)

+1d6 (A friend or contact helped them with the recon/info)

- 1d6 (Lets say this Faction is the Crew's Tier +2; Tier 2 vs Tier 4)

So 3d6.

4, 1, 6 (result spread is 1-3 = miss, 4-5 = success w/ complication, 6 = success, 6*2 = crit success)

Success.

Alright, so this means that the Position for this first major obstacle they're facing (I'm using imaro's framing of the situation above) will be Controlled. Position is threat/danger level (how bad a complication might be). That puts them in optimal position (lowest threat) to start their efforts.

GM: Alright. The ancient, Ghost Field elevator shaft empties you out into the central chamber of the catacomb temple, an enormous cavern that is flooded with murky sea water. You can see the green glow of the relic, its illumination giving the entire chamber an eerie hue that catches every dancing shadow. Its difficult to tell from here, but it rests on an aquatic-motif altar in the middle of an artificially made island in the flooded cavern that can be reached by a thin bridge of damp, brittle coral that stretches from the small isle to where the Ghost Elevator spat you out. Next to the altar are two squid-faced abominations, their hands clasped behind their back, heads bowed as a gurgly hymn resounds from the pair.

PLAYER 1 (LURK - basically a D&D Theif/Rogue): Heads bowed huh? Dark cavern? Pretty long bridge?

GM: Oh yeah. Long bridge, right out in the open, so no cover, but lots of concealment given how dark it is. You thinking about sneaking across to the island? That is a long Bridge. If you're going to try to sneak across, you've got 2 things to consider; (i) you're 2 lower tier than them so the Potency of the supernatural powers in this sanctum to detect folks walking in to steal the relic is 2 better than you and (ii)...long bridge and no cover.

So Controlled Position, but Limited (the lowest of the 3 Tiers) Effect to get across. You're going to have to make 3 moves to get across to the island the altar is on w/ Limited Effect.

PLAYER 2 (HOUND - basically a D&D Ranger): Spot (his spectral pet) has ghost-form. I'm going to have him turn into electroplasmic vapor and haunt the other side of the chamber and draw the attention of whatever supernatural power watches over this chamber...and maybe pull the squid-humans over there to investigate...Setup Move from Spot for us to give us +1 Effect.

PLAYER 1 (LURK): Yeah! And if we hustle over there rather than just taking it slow and careful can we trade Position for Effect? So Risky/Standard instead of Controlled/Limited and then Spot gives us +1 Effect for Risky/Great? Group Skirmish Action after Spot does the Setup?

GM: Awesome. Sounds good. Alright, who is leading the Group Action?

PLAYER 2 (HOUND): I'm going to Push (1 Stress for +1d) with Spot so spending 1 Stress on that. I'm already at 3 Stress so that will be 4...

PLAYER 1 (LURK): Alright, I've got 2 Stress so I'll lead the Group Action. I've got 3 in Skirmish, but we need that 6 (the highest roll on a Group Action determines the group's result...any 1-3 rolls means the Leader of the Group Action takes 1 Stress per 1-3 Roll) so I'm going to Push.

GM: Hang on. Let's resolve Spot's Setup Move, but Hound...how about a Devil's Bargain instead of Pushing. You know Hadley Smigglefitz your Vice Purveyor for your Weird (occult/supernatural fetish/taboos/essences) Vice? Well. Your keen, ranger-ey eyes can see in the sick green glow of the relic that the abomination on the left is wearing a collared cape with a brooch that is an absolute lock for Hadley. This thing is so rare. There is no way there are doubles. Is this abomination Hadley? Did this thing kill Hadley and take his stuff? Which would be worse?

Starting a Clock "Where's Hadley"; 4 Ticks and I'm ticking it once since you're Controlled; 1/4 Ticks.

Controlled + Standard for Spot's Setup.

PLAYER 2 (HOUND): It would actually be worse if this thing killed Hadley. Then I'd have to find a new Vice Purveyor. If this thing actually IS Hadley then maybe he was called by this relic and turned into this...thing? Maybe we can knock him out, get him out of here and I can change him back!

I accept your Devil's Bargain.

Spot is Tier 2 but an Expert (Quality +1). 3d6 +1d for the Devil's Bargain so 4d6. Got a 6!

GM: Cool, cool. Alright, if "Where's Hadley" ticks full in this Score, he's dead and this creature killed him. If it doesn't tick full and you bring this abomination back to your lair, you can put in the Downtime Activities to uncurse Hadley.

Spot dissipates into electroplasmic vapors and phantasmally glides to the other side of the room and elicits an eerie, spectral howl. The two creepy squid-men pull their heads up and stop "singing" their gurgley hymn. They move away from the altar to the far end of the isle and peer deeply into the dark.

Simultaneously, the once flat sheen of the water picks up in waves, the chamber flaring to life. The waves move inexorably to the area that Spot has manifested. At the same time the relic's glow pulses ever so slowly. The chamber has come to life but is occupied by Spot for now.

Alright you guys...Risky Great to quietly sprint across to the island where the relic sits on the altar. Get to leading Lurk.

PLAYER 1 (LURK): 4d6 for Skirmish with the Devil's Bargain. Crap, only a 5!

PLAYER 2 (HOUND): 2d6 for Skirmish. 1 and a 3... Sorry Lurk, take 1 Stress.

GM: Alright, Success with Complication. You're there. While the first Abomination is still preoccupied by Spot, the "Abomination maybe/maybe not Hadley" turns back toward the altar as you step off the thin bridge onto the island. I'm ticking your "Where's Hadley" Clock * 1 Hound; 2/4 (a Risky 4/5 should yield 2 Ticks so I've still got Complication to go). From this close, it just seems more likely this weird creature may have killed Hadley rather than it is Hadley. Its a good head taller than Hadley. But who knows. Maybe the transformation alters your size? Its definitely his cloak and brooch though, so you're still not sure. You're still unseen, but you're now Desperate Position (the rest of the Complication) and this thing is about to discover you and you're separated by a good 30 feet! What do you do?

Anyone want to Resist either Complication?

---

After that, maybe Hound resists the clock tick, maybe Lurk resists the Desperate Position, but probably not. You mark 1 xp for an Action Roll under Desperate Position and they've still got plenty of resources to Martial to try to get a 6. The Hound is a ranged specialist with Electroplasmic Ammo, so maybe he fires off a shot (Hunt move) w/ Desperate position, hoping the Electroplasmic Ammo reverses the Abomination back to Hadley.

Who knows.

But yeah that is the gist. Tons of resources/abilities/cohorts/moves/team synergy to martial that enables the resource-and-move-intensive decision-points for the "short game" (tactical for the move making now and to negotiate Position/Effect and change the fiction to enable certain moves), Complication and Risk management moment to moment (negotiating Position and sorting out whether you want to spend Stress to Resist a Complication), and a long-resource-game (you've got to manage several different resources/reservoirs/statuses for the Score at large and the entirety of the play loop and play loops to come simultaneously).

Ok, and I'm really trying to grasp the difference but I'm not seeing it... don't PC's in D&D have numerous class abilities, magic, animal companions, team synergy, etc to in turn do the same thing. As a simple example...couldn't teleportation or invisibility spells/scrolls/rings have just as easily circumvented the stealth issue in D&D?