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D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

Indeed. And then they do something clever to recover the situation (e.g. Ethan Hunt catches the bead of sweat). And that's what D&D doesn't do very well. In D&D the best thing to do when something goes wrong is to fall back on hack and slash.

I don't agree with this. For example if I can rectify what went wrong with a skill check and I'm a rogue with expertise... that is a much more attractive option than initiating a combat. If I have a single spell... say sleep that could take care of the problem I may use that as opposed to initiating a combat. Same for class abilities, magic items and so on. On the other hand I do think D&D makes it easier (as well as often being the most obvious option, to initiate combat.)

I remember (exactly) one double episode of Mission Impossible (the original TV series) that, despite all the trickery and rubber masks in the end it went pear-shaped and was resolved in a gunfight. It's like, for a change this week we will do Mission Impossible using the D&D ruleset.

Lol... Funnily enough gunfights, explosions and hand to hand are par for the course in the MI movies.
 

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That's dave. I don't think using the page 242 of the DMG rules is actually particularly beneficial, so broadly agree with you, though people acting like they don't exist is unhelpful.

However, have you actually read them? The way your post is phrased it suggests to me that you haven't. I agree in very broad terms with your general point that using them doesn't necessarily improve the situation, however, I think your suggestion that they actually further cloud the waters and actually make things worse is borne out of ignorance of what is being suggested on page 242.
I'm actually very familiar with them, and recommend them to others, albeit with my suggestions of making things player-facing. No, it's not unfamiliarity with them -- I use them in my game often -- that makes me say what I say. If that's your thinking, you need another. I both fully grasp them, and use them, albeit in a specific way, and still say what I say about them.
I'm with you on this sentence until you get to "hides it more from the players". I don't see that as justifiable on the basis of what is actually being suggested on page 242. I can see why you might guess that though.
The GM asks me to make an ability check to resolve my PC's action. What is the space that I, as the player, can understand that the GM will resolve the check? If it's binary pass/fail, then I at least understand what the risks are. If, however, the GM is now using the full gamut of options, then I as the player do not know if this action will be binary pass/fail where fail is bad, if this action will mean I will succeed, but there may be a cost, or if I can fail just as bad as 1, but the GM will open a new window (fail forward). My ability to grasp the risks of the situation become worse if the GM has all of these options on the table. The only way this clears up is if the GM is either extremely consistent and I have enough experience to rely on that (idiosyncratic to table) or if the GM makes things very player-facing, so the outcome space is clear before the check is agreed to.
I'd also suggest that I'm not really buying the apparent underlying notion that D&D is peculiar in the players having limited tools to assert fiction and the DM deciding what happens on success/failure. I would say that the vast majority of successful RPGs on the market are like D&D in this.
I wouldn't argue, except on "vast." Most RPGs out there are heavy GM decides as a central, if not core, mechanic. It's why there's a host of systems that can be easily grasped and swapped between for D&D players because they're not really that different, just some cosmetics or mechanics differences. The core of the system is still check with the GM. You actually see the problems when the shift is from games like D&D to games like FATE, or Cortex Prime, or Burning Wheel, or PbtA. These games have a fundamentally different set of base assumptions about play, and most D&D players are not used to considering their game from those baseline assumptions and so miss the shift. And why would they? The vast majority of gaming they're likely to be exposed to shares common baseline assumptions and so there's never really any challenge to the ingrained thinking that creates. D&D can do all games because, really, the only thing understood is that all games are essentially like D&D so there's no need to change -- just make some cosmetic mods and you're good!
If we look at DriveThru's top sellers for example (ignoring supplements/modules):

1. WWN - like D&D (does have more heist-friendly rules though due to multi-dice skills and Execution attacks).
2. Dune - Totally honestly I have no clue. It's 2d20 system, and it sounds like it's the same as D&D, but I could be wrong.
3. Hard-Wired Island - Like D&D only it's clearer that the DM has options, which by your logic is worse than D&D - specifically failure = GM picks between outright failure, success-at-a-cost, or a bargain, which seems to be exactly what you're condemning. Yet this is regarded as a narrative-friendly, player-friendly modern system.
4. SWN - See WWN.
5. Cyberpunk Red - Like D&D.
6. Blades in the Dark - As discussed at terminal length!

We could go on.
I don't know why we would? Is there something to this argumentum ad populum that tells us something? I'm absolutely fine with saying that most games out there share the same core assumptions that 5e does. This is even ignoring the outsized effect 5e has on the market -- with it it's even more true. That, however, doesn't show or prove anything, so I'm curious as to what you think this appeal to popularity really shows?

And no, more options is not worse, this is a terrible take, stop that one right now. Options that are more "GM decides how this works" make the game less understandable to the players. How this is a challenging statement I'm not sure.
 


Dune is a real outlier in that top 5. Lots of ways for players to assert fiction and for GMs to specify different kinds of success and failure. But I'm a huge grump about the new Dune game and think people are mostly scooping it up because it's Dune, without realizing how hard it swings toward the narrative/improv end of the spectrum. For example, as a player you can try to add a "Truth" to a scene, which is something you essentially make up and roll to see if it happens. It's much, much less crunchy than other 2d20 games, imo, and all about collaboration. Maybe everyone who's buying it right now is playing it, but I suspect not.

Lol... It's me... I'm people. Though honestly I'm not against meta currency in games, I'll admit Dune is a game I ordered without any review research or knowledge of the system.
 

Yes. There are also differences in what people of roughly the same general competency level find easy. I'd be willing to wager real money that you find acting--especially in front of people--much easier than I do. I suspect that would be the case even if I put time into studying acting. OTOH, writing poetry is easy for me--and it's not for other similarly intelligent people.

There's no real reason why GMs wouldn't be different. @Ruin Explorer has run heists in several games, and could probably prep one in 5E easily--and might almost be able to ad-lib one. If I needed to run one, it'd probably take me hours (and hours) to prep, and I'm still not sure I'd be able to run it to how I'd want to. (Some of this might be differences between our approaches to the game, and to GMing, but some portion of it is plausibly aptitude.)

Absolutely. There can often be substantial variation.

I do often find that I personally have the opposite perception though. I find that as I develop more skill in a given task I tend to perceive it as more difficult because my understanding of the technique and discipline involved and desire to get better at it tends to intensify, I think it might be a side effect of mostly choosing hobbies (community theater, power lifting, muay thai) that are highly concerned with peaking for a particular performance / bout / meet. Also power lifting in particular has taught me to be extremely mindful of cognitive/neurological demands. When you have spend 4-6 months preparing to play a particular role in a play the idea that someone could easily step into character like they just do it is somewhat baffling. Likewise as a power lifter when some random person at gym is like "Feeling froggy. Gonna max." it's a little hard to not look at them somewhat askew.
 

With Hero Points, sorta, they have badly-drafted rule that you have to play them "after the roll but before the results are applied", whatever the hell that means (DMs will interpret it varyingly), and you can use one to add +1d6 to your roll, so that might be enough to let you succeed.
Yep, I read it after my post and I think it would work better after the result and that is how I would use it. I would also probably allow you to spend more than one hero point if you want. Maybe as a type of Hero Point Advantage. Spend 6 heropoints and roll 6d6, take the highest. Or maybe each point increases the die size or soemthing.
 

Absolutely. There can often be substantial variation.

I do often find that I personally have the opposite perception though. I find that as I develop more skill in a given task I tend to perceive it as more difficult because my understanding of the technique and discipline involved and desire to get better at it tends to intensify
I wonder if some of it isn't that as one learns technique (how to apply one's talent) one's standards change. Not to go to far afield, but my wife does hand-drawn art for the Christmas cards we send out; I do poetry for inside. The first year, the poetry was a shard of free verse. The second year, the poetry was a series of haiku. The third year, the poetry was a villanelle.
 

I agree with your #1. Which is why I so strongly disagree with @Ruin Explorer. Infiltration =/= murdering everyone on the way in, getting the Macguffin and then slaughtering the survivors on the way out.

Is it possible? I guess so. Have I ever seen it done? Nope. Have I repeatedly seen it fail? Yup.

So, yeah, if it is possible, 5e does a crap job of doing it because, repeatedly, with at least 3 different DM's in 5e, all three of which are very good DM's who know their stuff and one of which has actually won design awards, failed to do so.
Okay, we don't have any real disagreement. Just different experiences. I've never had a heist fail in any edition of DnD without the pc's screwing it up badly.
 


I don't agree with this. For example if I can rectify what went wrong with a skill check and I'm a rogue with expertise... that is a much more attractive option than initiating a combat. If I have a single spell... say sleep that could take care of the problem I may use that as opposed to initiating a combat. Same for class abilities, magic items and so on. On the other hand I do think D&D makes it easier (as well as often being the most obvious option, to initiate combat.)
Given that it's usually the fighter with full plate and a DEX of 10 who fails the skill check, that tends not to happen.

If you whole party where rogues with reliable talent and expertise in the appropriate skill then they might be able to pull off a heist without fighting, but outside of a one-shot that never happens. And if it's a one-shot you may as well play a heist game.
 

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