• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

If you narrate a result that contradicts the outcome of a check, you're breaking the rules. If there's a success--whether from fiat or from a roll--and you don't know what the PC wants, you can't narrate that success until you find out what the PC wants.
You're moving the pea. The range of possible outcome available to the GM actually includes nominally negating the action on a successful roll. Some GMs on this board directly recommend calling for a check for an impossible task, just to keep DCs hidden, and this isn't flat out refuted by the rules. Similarly, even with principle, actions can be negated because the GM has asked for a roll for a different reason than the player thinks the roll is for. Say a player attempts to negotiate with a Burgomaster, but the detailed approach is, according to the GM's notes, doomed to failure (the Burgomaster absolutely will not respond to this action). The GM may call for a roll to see how badly the Burgomaster reacts -- in this case, the action will absolutely fail, but the result still has some uncertainty, just not what the player expects.

But, let's say we are going to be principled and do not ever negate the player stated goal of an action declaration on a success. The range of 'not negate' is still vast. The Burgomaster might, on a success, indeed be willing to negotiate, but the want some pretty hefty concessions or quests to do so. This might be a 'success', but it's certainly likely not what the player wanted. On the other side, you can have the Burgomaster just roll over on a success, and give away the whole farm, so to speak, on a successful roll. This has it's own problems in that things don't feel earned and just depend on the die rolls.

The truth is that for a game like 5e to work well, the GM has to balance their table, and the rules give a huge space within which to do this, but don't offer any real guidance or constraint on it at all. It's entirely up to the GM (and to an extent the table of players) to do this work.

It's a credit to you that you do this well. I agree with a lot of how you approach play -- I don't think you'd find much to complain about at my 5e table. The oddity is that you're so willing to credit the 5e rules for this when it's clearly you doing it, and doing it well.
Seems both straightforward and supported (if not demanded) by the rules to me.

It's a shame the published adventures violate (or instruct DMs to violate) the rules.

Personally, I think "rulings not rules" was part propaganda, and part exhaustion from the neverending errata of previous editions, and part encouraging DMs to make decisions and move on at the table. I think calling it "anti-design" or "anti-rules" is ... a bit of a reach, in practice.
Oh, it's very much not. Just look to the stealth rules -- this is just one of many explicit examples of rulings not rules. It was the most honest marketing campaign I'm aware of outside of the movie Crazy People -- Buy Volvos, they're boxy but they're good. So true in the '80's.

Again, why the rush to defend 5e on this point? It's a good game, largely because it is designed this way -- it's whatever a table needs it to be, within the general genre of D&D (which is absolutely a thing). It does combat pretty well, within the D&D genre, at least. It has some useful tools. But it completely lacks a structure in which to use those tools to do social or exploration play.

I mean, look at the numerous threads where how you do social interaction is debated -- some argue it should all be play-acting at the table with the GM as arbiter of outcome, and it's anathema to use mechanics to do this. This is supported by 5e -- there's a path called out in the DMG that is for this exactly. On the other side, there's others that argue that the mechanics are the way to go, otherwise it's just playing the GM and not the characters, so social mechanics are required. This is also a path in the DMG. Then there's a middle ground, which is, wait for it, also supported! Such a vast disparity in how you interact with one of the stated three pillars of the game, all equally supported and not by the rules.

The truth of 5e is that it takes the GM to decide how it works. Don't give this hard earned skill back to 5e by claiming that it's the rules and not you doing it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

What is "it" here?

The design space of 5e and the implications of that design?

Yes.

If so, I don't underestimate or overestimate the quantity of people who just don't think about it, to be honest. Those folks who don't think about it and just want to hang with friends? They can keep doing what they're doing! I don't think about their indifference just like they don't think about it!. They can keep on keeping on with their indifference!

Except your original comment was that people who play 5e deliberately have to accept that design space and its implications. My point is that you're ignoring the likely majority who simply don't think about it. They don't "accept" it; they just don't think about or care about it at all, at least in any conscious way.
 

I think it's possible to bring a shared expectation that the DM should make their rulings firmly with only the fiction in mind (as was the original expectation in older versions of the game). I'm not seeing that as a general expectation in the DMG what with all the lead storyteller language it seems enamored with.

I do think the vast majority of DMs try to respect the players' dice rolls, but more in a improv storyteller fashion where you are still skewing results in certain directions. I know you do not run the game that way, but I have encountered it all over the place. I think it's quite compatible with the DMG.
Right, but I think @prabe is missing the point. The GM NEVER HAS TO CALL FOR A CHECK AT ALL. He never has to set any specific DC, just whatever one he feels like. He never has to explain what the costs of failure or the benefits of success are, not even after the fact! So, sure, he has to 'honor the rolls made by the player', but that's like saying I have to honor the beggar by not taking my money back. I never had to give it in the first place.

Presumably GMs either allow rolls, and don't make DCs totally arbitrary, and don't blatantly undo their results or subvert them constantly. This is TABLE PRESSURE. It works, to a degree, but it has nothing to do with system. To go back to the OP, what system is 5e at all? A check mechanic without teeth, a combat system, and nothing but 'D&D culture' for whatever that may be worth at a given moment. We can always do better than that. It is like saying walking is always the best transportation because it is the most flexible. Yeah... but people invented cars, and we invented story game mechanics.
 

I didn't say about ignoring the results.

How success look like? How fail looks like?

Let's say, city watch shows up to a scene of a fight between the party and the NPCs. My character tries to play a damsel in distress, attracting the attention of the watchmen with "HEEELP" yells.

The GM calls for a Deception check (or Persuasion, or flat Charisma, doesn't matter — that's negotiable). Cool. I beat the DC. Cool.

Then what? Is my success that they rush to help, or that they don't just kick everyone's ass and then sort us out later? Or maybe they'll help, but only for a generous bribe?

Hell if I know. Before the GM tells me, all of the outcomes are possible.
Here's the thing, from a perspective of the person who's paradigm is "you're just an extra in the DM's story, playing your bit part" that's perfectly fine, you know nothing. Your character knows nothing, takes the chance because its the best she will get, and come what may. He's in charge of the story and why do you even NEED to know? But that is exactly the paradigm, the one that 5e was built for, that 2e was built for, etc. THIS is where 5e is NOT A FLEXIBLE GAME because that is all it can do! I mean, the DM might NOT play that way, but it is perfectly acceptable, and the only game process the majority of players even know about.

Now, you and I (presumably, me anyway) are looking at it from the perspective of a different process where all the participants equally drive the game. So you need to know, what are the possible actions I can take and how will their success/failure map onto the different possible outcomes, BECAUSE YOU WANT TO CHOOSE THE STORY, and so it is not just his business but your business as well. So you need, there is worth in, having a system that produces that. In fact that sort of thing is really ALL it needs to produce! Heck, look at that PACE document I posted before, that's literally all it does, but it is an entirely complete RPG, a pretty good one, albeit pretty basic.
 

So ... heterogeneity and all-a-that, but if I'm DMing and it's not clear what result you want, I'll ask. If what you want isn't consistent with what's come before, we'll negotiate. If it's as sketched-out as your thumbnail above, I'd literally let you choose the result.
Which is GREAT ADVICE, now I PAID FOR THE BOOKS WHY IS IT NOT IN THEM???!!!! I mean I guarantee you Mike Mearles knows that advice every single bit as well as you or I! If I wrote that DMG I'd be hiding in shame.
 

Oh I can run it just fine. I can play it just fine. If I join a game run by a less experienced GM there's literally nothing I can point them towards between sessions or whatever other than back seat GM'ing.
Sure, you can point them to threads on this forum where people have given excellent dissertations on how to GM effectively, and references to books full of information on how to do it, they just weren't published by WotC at any point in the last 7 years.
 

It is entirely plausible they believed they didn't need to say do, because they wanted to believe they didn't need to.
No wonder Monte left the team? lol. I don't think I can believe this frankly, Mike Mearles is too smart a guy. This was not an accident. It was an attempt to do something which basically failed. IMHO very solid class design and an adequate reprise of old AD&D tropes carries 5e, DESPITE the skill system and basically ALL of the DMG (I don't have anything against magic items particularly).
 

Sure, you can point them to threads on this forum where people have given excellent dissertations on how to GM effectively, and references to books full of information on how to do it, they just weren't published by WotC at any point in the last 7 years.
Is this a joke? They bought the dmg. They read the dmg. Wotc failed basically everyone as even the variant rules in it tend to immediately run into a host of required GM calls that those optional rules rarely hint at
or provide even a shred of guidance on
.
 
Last edited:

Personally, I think "rulings not rules" was part propaganda, and part exhaustion from the neverending errata of previous editions, and part encouraging DMs to make decisions and move on at the table. I think calling it "anti-design" or "anti-rules" is ... a bit of a reach, in practice.
Exhaustion, yes. I was there in all those endless debates. It was 10x the traffic of all the message boards of EnWorld, day in and day out for a year. NOTHING could be agreed on. It was endless, mostly amateurish game design drivel and nonsense. Every few days, and then increasingly less often, they would pump out some kind of article trying to explain their reasoning, putting forward some permutation of a check system, etc. All it did was raise the next wave of stink. I'm pretty sure in the end they just gave up, started feeding out chum like articles about what paladins should be, and went about ignoring the entire 3 ring circus. And the end result is a game where the designers just threw up their hands and GAVE UP ON DESIGN. In that sense it IS anti-design, the deliberate avoidance of any design.
 

I was thinking specifically of the PbtA tendency to make success-with-complications the more common form of success. For what its worth, my wife has much the same feeling you do about that (I'm more ambivalent myself, but I can't say I see it as a positive).
Its kind of a weird thing though, because if you think about it, in Dungeon World say, imagine you roll a 10+, you get what you want, and now its time for the GM to make a move, so something happens that is not, fictionally, good news for the PCs, and it is quite possible it is directly connected to what you just succeeded at. Likewise inf you roll a 7-9, you succeed, and then some sort of complication or other negative thing arises. This time it is pretty much guaranteed to be closely tied to what you just did, but really there's very little difference between the two classes of result, in fiction terms. How you FEEL about it, that may be different, I cannot say.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top