D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Undrave]

People want it all.

EK suck! They have no utility! Could you take ritual caster with feats? “Yeah but what about gwm!” Ok. Could you take find familiar at 1, light as a cantrip and prestidgitation? Yeah but what about firebolt!

how about a multiclass wizard fighter? They sucktoo! they don’t get as many feats as a fighter or as many high level spells as a wizard!

yeah. I think the anti EK stuff is in line with anti fighter wizard stuff. The restrictions on schools of magic play a role with the EK bias however. And that’s a design thing.

feats really get rid of this concern though if you use them. Magic initiate, ritual caster and the two feats in tashas blow it apart. The fey and shadow magic feats open it u a great deal inmho. But you have to really want the versatility and make an investment.

none of this is an indictment of dissatisfaction with EK, btw. Just a statement about flexibility.

if you get minor image and silent image you can do a lot of nutty stuff. Maybe take friends as a cantrip....

you gotta invest and yes sacrifice to get more though

Pretty sure your misinterpreting the thread.

OP is saying that when people complain about Casters being able to do way more than Martials, EK and Arcane Trickster are put aside. No one is saying EK are terrible. The thing is that if a Fighter needs to get spells to get 'good' then it's not really a martial character anymore.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

It’s not o

They really don't. 1 extra hex or hunters mark and 1 misty step a day and the tomfoolery that is War Magic in Tier 2 is just treading water. By tier 3, of course, War magic is utterly laughable, the Hexblade next door finally has EA+PAM+GWM online with shadow of moil, and you're halfway through the tier before you get access to..... fireball.

it’s not one a day. You can use slots to cast them. Maybe it’s only two a day or whatever based on level.

but having a martial suddenly appear by the beginning is not trivial. And hex is extra damage. If you action surge and have a two attack round by 5th level you have 4 attacks with and extra d6 each. That just on top of good damage.

for several levels gfb and and attack are superior.

that hexblade is too good in some ways is not to say that EK is bad. Nor does it take away from the versatility that can be achieved on a fighter chasis

 

[Asisreo]

Only if there is also an equal CR encounter made entirely of 1/4 CR archers, with a 100 foot chasm between the fighter and the archers, and a wall boxing the fighter in.

This isn't an encounter that counters spellcaster specifically. Nor are they creatures that martials have any sort of advantage over. I just want to illustrate what an actual high-level caster would have to face in a real combat scenario.

In all honesty, this encounter doesn't even hit the "deadly" category of encounters yet, so its wholeheartedly expected to win.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I wil

Pretty sure your misinterpreting the thread.

OP is saying that when people complain about Casters being able to do way more than Martials, EK and Arcane Trickster are put aside. No one is saying EK are terrible. The thing is that if a Fighter needs to get spells to get 'good' then it's not really a martial character anymore.

l reread the op and take a peek.

 

[ph0rk]

it’s not one a day.

I said one extra

but having a martial suddenly appear by the beginning is not trivial. And hex is extra damage. If you action surge and have a two attack round by 5th level you have 4 attacks with and extra d6 each. That just on top of good damage.

I am literally playing this character in a tier 2 campaign, and I am here to tell you that wizards, bards, and warlocks run circles around it in terms of options, to say nothing of rangers and paladins. I have a hexblade and a bladesinger in other games, also tier 2, and the differences in options that are available to me both in and out of combat are striking.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Pretty sure your misinterpreting the thread.

OP is saying that when people complain about Casters being able to do way more than Martials, EK and Arcane Trickster are put aside. No one is saying EK are terrible. The thing is that if a Fighter needs to get spells to get 'good' then it's not really a martial character anymore.

From the OP:
“Why are Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters unconsidered in the debates?

The most common complaints is that Martials don't have versatility or utility out of combat, but they do in the form of these subclasses.”

I was addressing this.

pretty sure I was tracking even if I also addressed other things too

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

They suck too, but they don't risk making things worst as a default effect.

That's true!

Bards don't risk making things worse; Bards will make things worse as the default effect.

 

[tetrasodium]

Not all encounters need to be combats. It's possible to design challenges that all characters, martial and otherwise, can contribute to and that expend some of those pesky spell slots and other consumable abilities. 4e was pretty good at this- between traps, hazards, and skill challenges, there are a lot of examples of the type of things I am talking about.

The problem there is martials like rogue fighter & even barbarian are generally good to great in those noncombat challenges where stealth & things like str/dex athletics/acrobatics or even tool proficiencies can bring a lot to say nothing of social skills. All of those require no resource consumption. the niche spells a caster might have to contribute there only apply if they are known and they are prepared and it's not better to just let one of the martials do it without expending resources. What remains ranges from "we can't go to avernus without planeshift... unless the gm takes us for the campaign they are running" to transparently obvious "This looks like a job for aquaman"

 

[ph0rk]

things like str/dex athletics/acrobatics or even tool proficiencies can bring a lot

Haha, oh man, that was funny. What's next, Investigation?

 

[FrozenNorth]

This actually makes it more of an issue. If there is only 1 fight in an adventuring day and it takes 5-6 rounds to complete, the wizard has only 6 rounds to cast spells which mean they have only 6 chances to "get it right." Remember, a wizard cannot cast all their spells all at once. They take it turn-by-turn and if they're casting high-level spells, the amount of spells they can cast with an accurate guess dwindle in number and power.

I have to disagree here. By design, high level wizard spells are more powerful than fighter damage, so fewer rounds of combat means the wizard can exclusively use high level spells.

Also, while a DM may employ misdirection, generally, a creature’s description gives some indication as to what spells might be successful (especially at higher levels where experience with different types of creatures may provide hints to the player).