D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Imaro]

By this I think that means you haven't used the rules @Imaro?

Because I have.(Edited after seeing @Aldarc's post)

And they are garbage. They really, really are. My Primeval Thule game recommends using these rules, as part of the genre and they are terrible. So, does that count as a measure? I've got about a hundred or so hours of real play with these rules and I can categorically state that they do not work in 5e worth a damn. They were needlessly fiddly, did not interact with the rest of the rules very well and did not add anything to the game other than busywork since most of the time, they just didn't come up. It was kind of one of those add on things that you tack onto your character sheet, like Iron Rations and then promptly forget about because nothing in the game actually connects to them.

I'd be interested in a little more depth here. I see broad blanket statements like this all the time... "needlessly fiddly" (really... a save, possibly subtract 1 from a score and rolling on a table is needlessly fiddly, in what way?)... Did not interact with what rules very well? And what were the rules supposed to add to the game that they didn't? I thought it was on the GM to make sure the rules came up... again ignoring the rules or forgetting them isn't a failure of the rules it actually is a failure of DM'ing (assuming you wanted to use those rules in the first place). I could describe a million games like you just did and no one could really offer a counter because nothing of substance is really being stated. So can you go into more depth here? That last sentence makes me think you forgot about them and thus didn't actually use them as intended, if I am mistaken please elaborate...

EDIT: Also... you played 100 hrs... with what you considered "garbage" rules... why??

 

[Imaro]

The current D&D ruleset, maybe. In the 1e DMG there's a section on insanity that might provide a half-decent jumping off point were one looking to overlay some sort of spiralling loss of sanity mechanic onto a D&D chassis.

No there's one in the 5e rules set as well... since you do loose sanity whenever you suffer from a long-term or indefinite madness... the problem is @Ovinomancer isn't actually using/discussing the rules for sanity.

 

[Imaro]

The funniest thing is that a lot of the advice that is being given in this thread would have been absolutely crucified during the 4e days. "Fail forward"? DM's deciding outcomes? Ignoring process sim play in favor of more narrative approaches to the game? There are people who are participating in this thread that I KNOW argued against the inclusion of these things in 4e that are now advocating them, completely without irony.

It truly is funny. To me, this has been WotC's greatest success. The fact that they've managed to convince people who absolutely hated these sorts of things when they were included in the game with 4e that they actually like these ideas and that the ideas are completely not from 4e. The change in writing styles is such a huge eye opener.

Tell people that the mechanics should support fail forward because that's more fun and everyone and their mother will come out of the woodwork to tell you that this is not D&D and is a terrible idea. Tell people that DM's should ensure that everyone has fun at the table and leave it up to the DM's to ensure this, and suddenly fail forward is a fantastic idea totally supported by D&D.

The the greatest triumph is that the people who argued against it ten years ago are now the biggest boosters and will STILL insist that they don't like 4e. LOL

Let me just say there's a difference between offering something as an option that you can use when and where it suits you...or not vs. entwinning, integrating and dictating where something is used in a game... I think a big crux of the divide in this thread is that some posters have a large preference for one or the other in game design.

 

[Lanefan]

A couple of sum-up thoughts after catching up on the last 10 or 12 pages of this lot:

--- Lovecraft IMO was himself insane, thus trying to find any sense in his writings is futile.
--- While reading this thread a sanity check is now required at the end of each page.
--- Somebody somewhere just has to open a pub called The Motte and Bailey.

 

[tetrasodium]

No there's one in the 5e rules set as well... since you do loose sanity whenever you suffer from a long-term or indefinite madness... the problem is @Ovinomancer isn't actually using/discussing the rules for sanity.

I've used honor & sanity scores, they don't fix the problem with the madness tables

 

[Imaro]

I've used honor & sanity scores, they don't fix the problem with the madness tables

Another broad statement... what's the problem you have with the madness table?

 

[Aldarc]

I'd be interested in a little more depth here. I see broad blanket statements like this all the time... "needlessly fiddly" (really... a save, possibly subtract 1 from a score and rolling on a table is needlessly fiddly, in what way?)... Did not interact with what rules very well? And what were the rules supposed to add to the game that they didn't? I thought it was on the GM to make sure the rules came up... again ignoring the rules or forgetting them isn't a failure of the rules it actually is a failure of DM'ing (assuming you wanted to use those rules in the first place). I could describe a million games like you just did and no one could really offer a counter because nothing of substance is really being stated. So can you go into more depth here? That last sentence makes me think you forgot about them and thus didn't actually use them as intended, if I am mistaken please elaborate...

EDIT: Also... you played 100 hrs... with what you considered "garbage" rules... why??

I am curious about this as well, but from your end of things. Earlier I asked you:

But when and how do you apply the rules? What triggers it? Who makes the call? When and how often do characters make saving throws against insanity or roll on the madness chart? How do you decide which chart to use for which occasion?

But I didn't hear anything back from you about how, why, and when you apply/use the madness rules, even if they are your modified versions. What did the madness rules add to your game? Do you have some concrete play examples of the madness rules working well?

 

[dave2008]

The main essence of a cosmic horror story, from a structural point of view, is that your protagonist will always be worse off at the end than at the beginning.

I generally agree (though that is not always strictly the case in the fiction) and that is exactly what happened in my 5e Cthulhu Horror game. They all ended up dead (and Cthulhu free). That is definitely worse than how they started!

 

[tetrasodium]

Another broad statement... what's the problem you have with the madness table?

Wasn't there quite a bit of discussion odetailing hiw it's an I'll fitting bolt on thst clashes with s&d norms built into the system and lacks anything in the way of mechanical teeth yesterday?... there you go.

 

[loverdrive]

Let me just say there's a difference between offering something as an option that you can use when and where it suits you...or not vs. entwinning, integrating and dictating where something is used in a game... I think a big crux of the divide in this thread is that some posters have a large preference for one or the other in game design.

There's an important difference between offering options and telling the group "do whatever you want! have fun!" and leaving them stranded. 5E does the latter, actually designed games do the former.

I'd be interested in a little more depth here. I see broad blanket statements like this all the time... "needlessly fiddly" (really... a save, possibly subtract 1 from a score and rolling on a table is needlessly fiddly, in what way?)... Did not interact with what rules very well? And what were the rules supposed to add to the game that they didn't? I thought it was on the GM to make sure the rules came up... again ignoring the rules or forgetting them isn't a failure of the rules it actually is a failure of DM'ing (assuming you wanted to use those rules in the first place). I could describe a million games like you just did and no one could really offer a counter because nothing of substance is really being stated. So can you go into more depth here? That last sentence makes me think you forgot about them and thus didn't actually use them as intended, if I am mistaken please elaborate...

I'm not the one being asked, but I did play a game with both sanity and madness rules. And I agree that they're garbage.

There's a laundry list of issues I had with madness rules (sanity is serviceable, but far from being good):

• It's absolutely unclear what calls for, well, madness. Ok, aberrations with tentacles probably are madness-inducing, but what about other things? Is something like discovering that the town you've been living your whole life was an illusion all along mind-shattering, or is it's just "who the hell had enough time and 6th-level spell slots to do that?"? That's not exactly issue with madness rules themselves, but it's an issue within a context of D&D. When you have a dude who can hurl fireballs and build life-like major images, the line between "normal" magic and things that defy reality starts to get kinda blurry.
• Short-term madness table often produces results that are just stupid and belong to slapstick comedy and not lovecraftian horror. A character that starts to eat naughty word because they've seen an alien visitor from the Great Beyond isn't something I'd expect from a cosmic horror story.
• Long-term madness often table produces results that are either just debilitating (ah, yes, falling unconscious for 1d10x10 hours is so fun) or largely meaningless. And both categories are something that I'd expect to happen to a secondary or a tertiary character, not a protagonist.
• Indefinite madness table produces nothing but gimmicks, that are, again, much more suitable to NPCs, not the PCs.
• And, most importantly, there's zero incentive to seek madness. The rules punish the player for doing things they're supposed to be doing -- y'know, meeting fish people, deciphering evil books, and looking beyond the illusory veil of comfortable "normality".

Using madness rules not only ain't gonna turn 5E into a cosmic horror story generator, but place additional obstacles on the way.