D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Ruin Explorer]

What I am trying to suggest is that it is not a mechanic made for horror. It is a mechanic for tension or suspense. You can use those in a horror game, or Different genre, but the mechanics don't make it a horror game or even a better horror game IMO

That's not a good argument. It doesn't make sense. Clearly a mechanic which is designed for a horror game, and helps to add tension or suspense, elements of horror, is a mechanic that support horror. It does in fact make it a game that is more suited to horror.

You seem to not be comprehending that there's no single magical mechanic that will turn a game from non-horror into horror, and equally, not processing that a game which has mechanics which support horror is different from a game which has no mechanics which support horror, or even has mechanics antithetical to horror.

You also don't seem to see that, by the logic you're following, rules are completely meaningless, and that no game supports anything. If that's your position, why not state it and be done here? But I think it's actually just extremely bad logic on your part, trying to defend a position that analysis shows doesn't make sense.

 

[dave2008]

To be fair, it seems that @dave2008 has an extrememely modified 5e as a baeline. So he may have already removed all spellcasting classes except the Wizard from his base game. I guess his base game is Fighter (not all subclasses), Rogue (not all subclasses), and Wizard. This way, removing the Wizard class removes all spellcasting?

Maybe?

Basically. I don't technically restrict player classes in my standard game, my players just pretty much always pick fighters or rogues. Now, what is different is that NPC casters are extremely rare in our standard world. The most powerful caster in the whole world (except for a monster, maybe, and the PC wizard) is a 12th level cleric. There are maybe 4-6 magic users at 10th level (again in the whole world) and most don't get beyond lvl 5. Level 5 is generally considered an archmage in our world.

 

[Ovinomancer]

It isn’t the Oberoni fallacy, it’s a disagreement. And setting out what different people mean by “Cosmic Horror” is more productive than two sides each arguing that the other doesn’t “get” Cosmic Horror.

I am still very curious about the specific point of contention. You say it is easy to make the player feel they have lost even when then win. How is this easy? What techniques do you apply here to do this easily? Say my party just defeated an eldrithic horror by fighting to stall it as a distraction while reversing the incantation to summon it. What is needed here to make this pyrrhic?

 

[Hussar]

I'm going to assume there's no real point in answering this now, but the general works in D&D unless it's superseded by the specific. So Sanity is used as an ability with all the general rules of abilities, ability checks, saves, etc. applying (including any optional rules the DM might be using for abilities). The DMG gives specific examples of what might require a San check and San save... but at this point I don't think it's worthwhile for me to type it all out.

EDIT: Also, and this is IMO, it is fitting that no class has prof in SAN saves as it keeps everyone on equal footing when it comes to this in a horror game unless they are willing to make a hard choice and devote an Ability improvement to it... with a class based proficiency the saves would become trivial at higher levels and would totally destroy any sense of tension or fear at failing them. Your players seemed to be looking for a way to mitigate the actual horror part...which in a sword and sorcery game with a dash of horror might have been a good thing... but in an actual horror campaign (which I believe these rules were intended for) would be terrible.

Actually, I do agree with you with that last bit.

Only problem is, the rulesin the DMG don't really say, "Hey, only use these rules if you REALLY want a pure horror game."

 

[dave2008]

That's not a good argument. It doesn't make sense. Clearly a mechanic which is designed for a horror game, and helps to add tension or suspense, elements of horror, has mechanics that support horror. It does make it a game that is more suited to horror.

You seem to not be comprehending that there's no single magical mechanic that will turn a game from non-horror into horror, and equally, not processing that a game which has mechanics which support horror is different from a game which has no mechanics which support horror, or even has mechanics antithetical to horror.

You also don't seem to see that, by the logic you're following, rules are completely meaningless, and that no game supports anything. If that's your position, why not state it and be done here? But I think it's actually just extremely bad logic on your part, trying to defend a position that analysis shows doesn't make sense.

I am not really trying to defend anything. I have come to a realization during these discussions that a TTRPG game can't do horror. Rules can't make you feel horror. I didn't expect to come to this realization, it is just where the conversation took me.

 

[Imaro]

The claim was that Sanity can be used for ability checks. You said that @Hussar was not looking for discussion when he stated he didn't see how that works with INT skills. I thought you had some input on this topic, but it appears that you don't, that the only use you have for Sanity is exactly as I put it upthread -- it's an optional replacement for the WIS/CHA saving throws in the Madness rules. I mean, I just said that was already established and didn't need to be covered again as the ask was about how you could use SAN ability checks like other ability checks. I'm sorry you seem to take offense to this line of discussion, but I'm confused why you would take offense to @Hussar's statement about INT skills and SAN ability checks when you had no dog in that fight. I guess it wasn't you that said the Sanity rules are independent of the Madness rules and could be used in other ways. My bad, it's a busy thread, but I'm glad that we're on the same page re: Sanity is just an optional rule to the optional rules for Madness -- it doesn't do anything on it's own.

If that's not your position, then I, again, ask for clarification and explanation as to how you can use it outside the Madness rules.

EDIT: no, it was you that suggested pairing it with a skill upthread. How do you think that would work, since you've suggested it?

The same answer I gave Hussar applies here...
The general works in D&D unless it's superseded by the specific. So Sanity is used as an ability with all the general rules of abilities, ability checks, saves, etc. applying (including any optional rules the DM might be using for abilities). The DMG gives a few specific examples of what might require a San check and San save for the DM to extrapolate from... I'm not going to list them out but they are in the same vein as the examples given for other ability scores. Maybe I'm missing the point of this but I'm not sure why, when I have general rules for how abilties work in the game... I would need special rules for San?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Basically. I don't technically restrict player classes in my standard game, my players just pretty much always pick fighters or rogues. Now, what is different is that NPC casters are extremely rare in our standard world. The most powerful caster in the whole world (except for a monster, maybe, and the PC wizard) is a 12th level cleric. There are maybe 4-6 magic users at 10th level (again in the whole world) and most don't get beyond lvl 5. Level 5 is generally considered an archmage in our world.

I don't understand. If you don't restrict classes, surely more was needed to be removed for your Cthulhu hack? I think hixing the pea behind "my players usually choise fighters and rogues" is a tad disingenuous.

Why do your players usually select martial classes? Given how useful magic is in D&D, I'm guessing you have some punitive changes to magic use that they just don't want to deal with.

 

[Imaro]

Actually, I do agree with you with that last bit.

Only problem is, the rulesin the DMG don't really say, "Hey, only use these rules if you REALLY want a pure horror game."

Come on man... If anything the company who thought they were a good fit for their particular setting is at fault (if like you say, they don't work well within it). I mean that's what you're paying them for, right? they should know what feel, and what mechanics fit it.

EDIT: The other side to consider is that the rules do actually work the way they want them too and your players just don't like that aspect of Thule...

 

[Ovinomancer]

The same answer I gave Hussar applies here...
The general works in D&D unless it's superseded by the specific. So Sanity is used as an ability with all the general rules of abilities, ability checks, saves, etc. applying (including any optional rules the DM might be using for abilities). The DMG gives a few specific examples of what might require a San check and San save for the DM to extrapolate from... I'm not going to list them out but they are in the same vein as the examples given for other ability scores. Maybe I'm missing the point of this but I'm not sure why, when I have general rules for how abilties work in the game... I would need special rules for San?

I am looking for examplez. What constitutes a SAN check? Just saying they work like the other ability checks isn't helpful -- I know what an STR check dies, it tests a feat of strength. What feats of sanity are there? I don't get it conceptually, and, given how you keep providing an answer that is akin to "you just do it," I'm curious if you actualky have a better understanding of what SAN is used for.

 

[Imaro]

I am looking for examplez. What constitutes a SAN check? Just saying they work like the other ability checks isn't helpful -- I know what an STR check dies, it tests a feat of strength. What feats of sanity are there? I don't get it conceptually, and, given how you keep providing an answer that is akin to "you just do it," I'm curious if you actualky have a better understanding of what SAN is used for.

There are examples in the DMG... you have the DMG... why would I need to write out examples when you can just look there?

In my particular campaign nearly anything revolving around understanding, learning about, etc. the Stygia would require San to replace an Intellect check.

EDIT: In your campaign it could be Cthulhu... or the Dark Gods... or the horror that is Hello Kitty... and honestly this is one of the reasons I don't want the rules dictating to me how to use a tool because every campaign I run, much less those run by others may decide to use the tool in a different way or with different things, or with different effects... and I prefer that... even enjoy it more than a totally homogenous experience in every game I play.