D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Mind of tempest]

We're talking about one of the most powerful superheroes in the MCU here.

Its not like low level Wizards are emulating that kind of power either.

true but low level is not the problem, 1-5 is fine and working mostly well.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Point is, 4e probably had the best versions of Epic Martial Characters in the game's history and 5e Epic isn't quite as epic.

One of the things that I lived about Epic Destinies is that most of them weren’t gated by class. It doesn’t matter if you aren’t a ranger, you can become a Dark Wanderer. Faithful follower of a god but not a cleric or paladin? You can still take the more religiously inclined epic destinies.

 

[TheSword]

Well, for one it would depend on how well implemented it was.

Look at the n^2 versions of ranger there are - even with spells in the mix it is hard to get the balance right.

That aside - what could this class has that (1) is not magic, and (2) can compete with foresight, force cage, dimension door/teleport, simulacrum, greater invisibility, banishment etcetera? These all have very strong combat and out of combat uses (well, no combat uses for teleport, but plenty for dimension door).



124 vs 192 hp at level 15 with a 14 con for either. The gap isn't that wide at all, unless the fighter is also stacking con more than the wizard; the reverse is probably more likely.




However if the adventuring day is short (as many are) this isn't much of an issue because the wizard doesn't come close to running out of resources.

The power of spells mentioned are greatly reduced by both concentration and the massive limitations on high level spell slots, and the difficulty of procuring scrolls easily. 5e is not 3e. I really wish people would stop equating them.

 

[Sithlord]

If they would just merge the fighter and warlord like I been saying for years this would not even be a debate. And some people just want the simple subclass like champion so it is no problem. I would like to see more that makes fighters want a high charisma so they can be the leaders like in many stories and movies. I would not want a class doing that because many fighters have zero desire for such things. But a subclass or more charisma based leadership maneuvers for the battle master would be great.

 

[Asisreo]

At page 24, I want to recalibrate ourselves to where we are and what we've discussed in this thread.

There's a few points from those that believe MvC is a problem. I'll also address how I feel about these points and any confusion or contention with them.

• There is an audience of players who desire a complex martial with no spellcasting
  • This is absolutely okay. And it may be valuable to cater to them but I don't know why they would have priority unless they are the majority.
• Martials shine exclusively in combat but caster are good in all areas
  • This very well may be true, but I'm curious how it holds in a session within the forums.
  • I'm not sure its bad if martials are specialized in combat if combat is the most integral sequences in this franchise unless the margin gap is too small
• Casters can replicate great, strong fictional characters in media without magic items but Martials cannot
  • I'm not sure that the intention of D&D is to be a fictional character simulator. I feel like any direct character-like feature is either a reference or coincidental
• Any complexity martial combatants have are not complex enough to feel like the player has breadths of options
  • I believe this is just kinda subjective. Naturally, you don't get a wizard's complexity in any martial class, but the complexity is what makes wizard unique.
  • As long as there's at complexity enough to keep yourself occupied but not so much you are bogged down with choices expecting a more streamlined experience, I think its fine.
  • I don't think complex = level-up options. I think its more about how many descriptions, rules, and resources that you must balance within a day. Sure, nobody but a wizard has 44 of those, but I'm still not sure that's a bad thing

 

[Minigiant]

You can create many Heroic Fantasy heroes without epic boons, but I think its misleading to say you can create any character from media with only class features because D&D isn't really a 1-to-1 character replicator. Nobody can be Gandalf because Gandalf has literal immortality, but people try to equate D&D wizards with Gandalf as if they're meant to be the same.

What should matter isn't whether this player character is representative of this fictional character, but rather that they are both relevant within their fiction.

Even if Martials have no mystical powers that guarantees physical superiority outside combat, if they can still decapitate multiple hydra heads within 6 seconds, survive multiple meteor swarms within a day and not slow pace, and can solo an Adult Dragon encounter with raw strength and resilience. Even if its not "lifting literal tons easily," its still epic. And its epic in their area of expertise: combat.

True.
The point is the image of a martial character past level 12 or so is undefined and varies from DM to DM and Player to Player. This is different from casters.

So fans use media as defences to do complex actions which creates flawed comparisons.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Your lift is 30 times your Str score.
You need 60 Str to lift a ton.Both Thor and Hulk can lift a ton.

They can lift at least hundreds of tons, and probably several magnitudes more. Thor can withstand heat of a sun. I don't really think that even high level D&D characters should be as powerful than Thor who is literally a god, but it is utterly absurd to claim that they come even close.

 

[FrozenNorth]

You may indeed. Nothing stopping the DM from imposing the gritty rest variant on the wilderness areas outside the comforts of town though is there?

It is a possible solution. It requires using a game variant, and using it in a manner that is different than stated in the DMG (since the DMG doesn’t say anything about changing the rest rules at different points within an adventure). Different rest rates also cuts against verisimilitude for many players and DMs.

Schredingers wizard is alive I see, and his use of those spells (some of which are like 5th level) takes away from his combat resources.

Schroedinger’s wizard is one that always has the right spell for the occasion.

What I described was that a level 5 wizard could choose 4 combat spells and still has 4 spells left over that would allow him to contribute in non-combat encounters (and that excludes spells, such as Invisibility and Fly, useful in both).

A 5th level fighter, barbarian and monk would have much fewer options for non-combat options.

Ive run a campaign over 20+ levels, and I managed just fine.

Its something the DM needs to keep an eye on, manage and factor in, but it does come with its advantages as well.

Since my whole point is that it is hard and requires extra work, I don’t see that you are necessarily disagreeing with me.

 

[Asisreo]

Since my whole point is that it is hard and requires extra work, I don’t see that you are necessarily disagreeing with me.

I completely agree with this. I frequently run high-level campaigns when I design them, there's definitely more to keep track of and the details begin to matter so much more.

Essentially, you have to be on your "rules A-game."

Referencing the challenge, even if you ignore the costly components ruling I was making, many of the combinations still had trouble working due to the rules of spellcasting, vision, concentration, and size.

Magic Circle never would have worked because it will always drop concentration unless the character casts Wish.

As a DM, its even harder than being a spellcaster since you basically always need to double-check everything but its more rewarding when you can finally give the thumbs-up to the character with a plan that might just work.

 

[Oofta]

Roll20


She spammed that and a few programmed illusions, plus popping disguise illusions and geases on everyone in it.

Then she created a Simulacrum of Vision.

Don't forget she also had mass dominate on several hundred (thousand?) people and physically modified everything in a couple square mile area. Oh, and everything sent in was also instantly transformed.

The hallucinatory terrain doesn't touch any of that, it's not literally transforming matter.