D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[Ruin Explorer]

Of course it is, no one has made any statement to the contrary. Where and what they constraints are, though, is different from D&D. D&D is also a pretty constrained game. Most people are so used to the shackles, though, that they don't even notice. The most common reaction I see to the suggestion ypu don't have to do it like D&D does is incredulity and denial. "You can't just do it like that! That's not even an RPG!"

I completely agree with this to be clear! A lot of D&D DMs absolutely don't see the limitations D&D has.

Interestingly, over the years, it seems like more and more people have seen the limits (since the 1990s, anyway, which is as far back as I can tell). Be interested to see how the "next generation", i.e. the vast herd of DMs raised on 5E, will react to other RPGs as they eventually discover them.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Sanity as presented in the DMG (as your ability not to break when confronted with the mythos)... not your personal definition... could help you understand better.

I've got that feeling where you see someone else make your point for you, and then proudly state that you're wrong because of that point.

I say that there's nothing in any Lovercraft story that suggests being sane helps learn the truth. The opposite seems to be the norm -- you have to go insane to have the knowledge. You proudly point out that the D&D Sanity rules work exactly to make it so that being sane helps you better learn the truth, and as if I'm wrong. But my statement was that the Sanity rules run counter to the tropes in the fiction, and you're saying, yup, look at hiw they run counter!

 

[dave2008]

I'm pretty sure that guy didn't physically go there, and I don't think he had anywhere near that many adventures.

I didn't remember, but his adventures seem pretty extensive: The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

It is also a strange mix of being their and not. It seems if he forgets he is in a dream he can be harmed. I.E. the Dreamlands area place he is inhabiting, but he can escape by waking up.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I didn't remember, but his adventures seem pretty extensive: The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath

It is also a strange mix of being their and not. It seems if he forgets he is in a dream he can be harmed. I.E. the Dreamlands area place he is inhabiting, but he can escape by waking up.

Yeah I read it a few years ago. He's not there, but he can forget that. He's not doing the kind of violent scary adventures PCs go on. It's a very strange and cool story, but it's not really aligned with the rest of the Mythos, because it's not very scary, and that's part of the point. It's more high strangeness than anything else. I.e. it's fantasy. It's not even horror-fantasy. It's just fantasy.

 

[Imaro]

I've got that feeling where you see someone else make your point for you, and then proudly state that you're wrong because of that point.

I say that there's nothing in any Lovercraft story that suggests being sane helps learn the truth. The opposite seems to be the norm -- you have to go insane to have the knowledge. You proudly point out that the D&D Sanity rules work exactly to make it so that being sane helps you better learn the truth, and as if I'm wrong. But my statement was that the Sanity rules run counter to the tropes in the fiction, and you're saying, yup, look at hiw they run counter!

Ok let's try to take this step by step...

1.Sanity in the DMG guide is not a record of whether you are sane or insane...
2. Sanity is a sliding scale of how well you are able to resist the effects of the mythos breaking your mind (think of the difference between your ability to resist disease vs how healthy you are, one could inform the other or not but they aren't the same thing)

Do we agree both of these are true?

EDIT: Your view of Sanity seems to align with that stat in CoC but it's not the same in D&D.

 

[dave2008]

Yeah I read it a few years ago. He's not there, but he can forget that. He's not doing the kind of violent scary adventures PCs go on. It's a very strange and cool story, but it's not really aligned with the rest of the Mythos, because it's not very scary, and that's part of the point. It's more high strangeness than anything else. I.e. it's fantasy. It's not even horror-fantasy. It's just fantasy.

I agree, but it does involve Azathoth and Nyarlathotep so it ties into the Mythos and some important ways.

 

[dave2008]

Yeah I read it a few years ago. He's not there, but he can forget that.

However, he does appear to be in real danger their as Nyarlathotep is disappointed when he "escapes."

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Your view of Sanity seems to align with that stat in CoC but it's not the same in D&D.

Yeah because D&D's SAN was half-arsed because some guy wrote it in an afternoon and didn't think about it too hard. The same is true of like 50% of the optional rules in the DMG. It's not an intentional decision. It's a screw-up.

You're like a guy walking into a room where someone tripped and dropped paint on a canvas, and you're here to tell us that it's a masterpiece of modern art.

 

[Imaro]

Yeah because D&D's SAN was half-arsed because some guy wrote it in an afternoon and didn't think about it too hard. The same is true of like 50% of the optional rules in the DMG. It's not an intentional decision. It's a screw-up.

You're like a guy walking into a room where someone tripped and dropped paint on a canvas, and you're here to tell us that it's a masterpiece of modern art.

And you're that guy already prejudiced so gives no credit whatsoever when something may not be a "masterpiece" but is a pretty good, functional piece of art he just doesn't like... Are we really devolving into this, I felt I have been pretty respectful in not addressing you but the argument... but now we're here.

 

[Aldarc]

I think it is quite easy to do solid Cosmic Horror with CoC/ToC. You have all the elements. Really the main concern is whether or not the players are interested in short lifespan characters, because you pretty much won't see them coming back for another adventure. In my, long ago, CoC games attrition was HIGH. The players created a sort of 'society' to provide a bit of continuity, so each adventure might be mostly new PCs, but they could count on having a common background support system and a group history. Still, presaging things like Laundry Files, the group's overall mission was at best to stave off the final end of humanity, or keep their home town from being eaten YET.

Obviously SOME level of success is required, and you have this balancing act. You can see it in Laundry Files where the overall trajectory is 'down the tubes' but the actual PCs can advance a bit and learn how to cope. Of course everything they learn just shows them how much worse the situation really is than they suspected. I'd call that cosmic horror.

So, yeah, there's going to be a bit of 'pulpiness' in any sort of game like this, especially set in the 1920's like CoC is. Still, you can get to the existential dread part without THAT much trouble. The rules certainly don't get in your way here. PCs are fragile, monsters ridiculously dangerous, and the SAN/Mythos clock/dilemma is always working against you. Nobody escapes for long. If something doesn't rip your PC limb-from-limb, her mind will surely be fried in a couple adventures. I mean, who can actually survive Masks with a positive SAN? It is practically impossible.

I hated - no wait loathed - the idea that my character was basically doomed to either die or go insane in CoC. It was not actually CoC or a Cthulhu-themed TTRPG that turned me around on that, but a board game: Eldritch Horror. But it's a game where if you go insane or die, you retire that character and grab a new character. What matters is not so much your character, but stoping the old god.

Honestly, I think that Forged in the Dark could work well with Cthulhu: stress, in/sanity, countdown clocks, and Old God's Bargain. I could see how that could work.