D&D 5E D&D compared to Bespoke Genre TTRPGs

[FrozenNorth]

Also, just as a question, as the person who brought up the 5e sanity rules in the first place.

Is it fair to say when several people talk about how bad it is and only one person defends it, that it’s probably bad?

Eh, I don’t think a lot of people use the sanity rules period, and after 20 pages this thread has more people who are critical of the OP than supported him, so I don’t think you can read too much into it.

Or to put it a slightly different way, Cheesecake factory sells a lot of food “good enough”, but I don’t expect pizza aficionados to give rave reviews about their pizza.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

And you're that guy already prejudiced so gives no credit whatsoever when something may not be a "masterpiece" but is a pretty good, functional piece of art he just doesn't like... Are we really devolving into this, I felt I have been pretty respectful in not addressing you but the argument... but now we're here.

It isn't functional. That's exactly what everyone has been explaining to you.

The proposed function of the system is essentially as replacement for both the Sanity value and the Mythos skill. Except it doesn't function as that, because it's inverted the second half.

As such, it doesn't have a role. You've tried to create one for it,. fuelled by your profound misunderstanding of the genre and inexperience with RPGs from that genre, but there's no genre where things work like that. In the Mythos/Cosmic Horror genre, as discussed at length, you need sanity and Mythos understanding to oppose each other.

But in pure pulp fantasy, heroes don't lose sanity, and don't go mad. Only NPCs and villains do. The is the sort of "shoot Cthulhu in the face" genre. So the design is equally useless there.

There's no genre it's for. And we know it's a screw-up, because the writing doesn't mention that, the writing doesn't acknowledge that this is running directly counter to all conventional Sanity-type systems. Especially those associated with Cosmic Horror.

 

[Imaro]

It isn't functional. That's exactly what everyone has been explaining to you.

The proposed function of the system is essentially as replacement for both the Sanity value and the Mythos skill. Except it doesn't function as that, because it's inverted the second half.

As such, it doesn't have a role. You've tried to create one for it,. fuelled by your profound misunderstanding of the genre and inexperience with RPGs from that genre, but there's no genre where things work like that. In the Mythos/Cosmic Horror genre, as discussed at length, you need sanity and Mythos understanding to oppose each other.

I disagree... in Lovecraft Lite... a game based on the Dreamlands... and more modern cosmic horror media like Lovecraft Country you do not. So while I agree if your cosmic horror is based purely on only specific works of HP Lovecraft then yes you need sanity and Mythos understanding to oppose each other. If I want to run cosmic horror in the vein of Lovecraft Country I don't.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Did you just reinvent the inverse relationship between (a) Sanity and (b) Cthulhu Mythos skill?

Yeah lol. I'm reframing in D&D attribute terms! If people like SAN as an attribute, you can just make an attribute pair of SAN/ALN and do basically the exact same thing as Sanity and Mythos in CoC.

As far as I know, the phrase "firehose of adversity" comes from Paul Czege (here). He's using it to describe his approach to scene-framing, and contrasting it with what he calls "scene extrapolation" which is typical in much D&D adjudication, CoC adjudication, indeed most mainstream/non-indie RPGing.

I believe that @Ovinomancer is using the phrase in a similar fashion, though he's describing PbtA/FitD play rather than strongly scene-framed play.

The "firehose of adversity" is not every outcome is as bad as one might possibly conceive. It's that every situation, including consequences that are snowballing in from previous situations, put something real at stake for the character. The contrast is not between the orc hurt me and the orc maimed me but between you open the door; the room beyond is empty and you open the door to the vault; the treasure is gone!; or between you see signs of Orc raiding parties and as your eyes follow the Orc tracks to the horizon, you see a smudge of smoke from the distance; it looks like it must be coming from your village; or between the assassin gets the drop on you - you're hosed, and better roll up a new PC and the assassin gets the drop on you - what do you do? (Baker makes an especial point of that last one in the DitV rulebook, but I think the same point holds for PbtA).

That makes way more sense and is reflective of how things tend to actually work, thanks for the explainer!

 

[Hussar]

I think it will be interesting to see how the mechanics in the new Ravenloft book match the DMG mechanics. If they don't, then, well, that pretty much says it all right there.

 

[Imaro]

I think it will be interesting to see how the mechanics in the new Ravenloft book match the DMG mechanics. If they don't, then, well, that pretty much says it all right there.

That's an odd way of looking at it... I would hope they are different options since I'm paying for new material.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I disagree... in Lovecraft Lite... and more modern cosmic horror media like Lovecraft Country you do not. So while I agree if your cosmic horror is based purely on only what HP Lovecraft has written then yes you need sanity and Mythos understanding to oppose each other. If I want to run cosmic horror in the vein of Lovecraft Country I don't.

Lovecraft Country-style stuff doesn't need SAN at all and isn't helped by it. You could simply use the Arcana skill for that approach (as in that universe the occult and Mythos stuff are one and the same), and forget about the saves (using the original attributes instead, and not making up new saves). None of the heroes goes insane or really struggles with sanity.

It's essentially pulp-style stories of dark adventure, with horror elements - as pulp often has. There's no place for the SAN mechanic there. The Fear and Stress rules in Ravenloft might be useful though.

The same is true for most modern takes on Mythos stuff, as I noted earlier. It's pulp-style dark adventure, usually with a focus on minority groups and acting to reclaim the Mythos to some extent, but without reinforcing the problematic elements.

I think it will be interesting to see how the mechanics in the new Ravenloft book match the DMG mechanics. If they don't, then, well, that pretty much says it all right there.

It doesn't feature any sanity-focused mechanic, and even the detailed "how to run Cosmic Horror" section makes absolutely no mention of the Sanity mechanic in the DMG. Which given that it would be an obvious fit if it wasn't rubbish, yeah pretty much does say it all. It does add new takes on Fear and Stress though, among other things.

That's an odd way of looking at it... I would hope they are different options since I'm paying for new material

The new Ravenloft has sections on different kinds of horror. One of them is Cosmic Horror. If there was a DMG mechanic which was useful to Cosmic Horror, it'd mention it there or in the later section on running horror. It doesn't. Whereas it does mention other optional rules from the DMG, even when it is replacing them.

 

[Imaro]

Lovecraft Country-style stuff doesn't need SAN at all and isn't helped by it. You could simply use the Arcana skill for that approach (as in that universe the occult and Mythos stuff are one and the same), and forget about the saves (using the original attributes instead, and not making up new saves). None of the heroes goes insane or really struggles with sanity.

Again I disagree... after coming into contact with the mythos many of the character's are coping with mental issues and the impact of that revelation. Is it stark-raving, insane in your face madness that Lovecraft stories allude to... no and I'm glad it's not. It's a more nuanced and subtle treatment of madness and questioning one's sanity.

It's essentially pulp-style stories of dark adventure, with horror elements - as pulp often has. There's no place for the SAN mechanic there. The Fear and Stress rules in Ravenloft might be useful though.

I agree it's pulp (but still cosmic horror) but these are more frail/complex heroes, physically and mentally, than say Conan. Conan wouldn't have give a second thought to what happens to Letitia in the mansion with the spell that creates an illusion of Tic... but it haunts her mentally, even after she's out of the immediate danger and affects her relationship with Tic. Dianna's interaction with the Picanninny Demons leave her forever scarred and changed to the point that her final action in the final episode when juxtaposed against the fact that she is a child... it's quite simply horrifying when you think about it.

The same is true for most modern takes on Mythos stuff, as I noted earlier. It's pulp-style dark adventure, usually with a focus on minority groups and acting to reclaim the Mythos to some extent, but without reinforcing the problematic elements.

It doesn't feature any sanity-focused mechanic, and even the detailed "how to run Cosmic Horror" section makes absolutely no mention of the Sanity mechanic in the DMG. Which given that it would be an obvious fit if it wasn't rubbish, yeah pretty much does say it all. It does add new takes on Fear and Stress though, among other things.

We sure do infer alot that reinforces our own already established viewpoints. I would say it's not referenced because it's in the DMG so people are aware of it and there's no need to waste space reiterating or repeating it... but I'm not a WotC designer or developer for the book so I don't actually know and speculation of this sort serves no purpose in my mind.

The new Ravenloft has sections on different kinds of horror. One of them is Cosmic Horror. If there was a DMG mechanic which was useful to Cosmic Horror, it'd mention it there or in the later section on running horror. It doesn't. Whereas it does mention other optional rules from the DMG, even when it is replacing them.

Again not necessarily, you're assuming based on exactly zero knowledge of what went on behind the scenes with the book. Again for all we know space was tight and stuff was already cut... so why use it repeating something that's in the corebooks?

EDIT: I'm curious does the Ravenloft book spend time giving specific horror mechanics for each of the genres it covers?

 

[Hussar]

That's an odd way of looking at it... I would hope they are different options since I'm paying for new material.

Not really. If the mechanics were good and as easily adaptable as you've claimed, wouldn't they build on those? Even if was just a bit clarifying or rewording? The fact that they don't even bother mentioning it speaks volumes to me. For example, the smokepowder and gun rules in Waterdeep Dragon Heist use the DMG rules for guns. The Ships and the Sea section of Ghosts of Saltmarsh directly reference the PHB and DMG to the point of saying specifically, "This material builds on the travel rules of the Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master's Guide". Under Hazards, it actually references Chapter, "see chapter 7 of the Player's Handbook for how group checks work".

Additionally, Downtime, an optional rule, is specifically called out in Xanathar's, and referenced repeatedly.

So, yeah, if a supplement completely fails to mention existing mechanics, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's doing so because the existing mechanics are garbage.

 

[dave2008]

There are a number of Cthulhu Mythos games that have been mentioned thus far:

• Call of Cthulhu (Basic Roleplaying)
• Trail of Cthulhu (Gumshoe) - the core rulebook is 250 pgs.
• Cthulhu Dark (the free 4 page pdf)
• Fate of Cthulhu (Fate)

There may have been others, but these are the ones that I recall off-hand that have been mentioned in the thread.

Thanks! It must have been Cthulhu Dark as @Hussar mentioned it was 4 pages.