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Not really. If the mechanics were good and as easily adaptable as you've claimed, wouldn't they build on those? Even if was just a bit clarifying or rewording? The fact that they don't even bother mentioning it speaks volumes to me. For example, the smokepowder and gun rules in Waterdeep Dragon Heist use the DMG rules for guns. The Ships and the Sea section of Ghosts of Saltmarsh directly reference the PHB and DMG to the point of saying specifically, "This material builds on the travel rules of the Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master's Guide". Under Hazards, it actually references Chapter, "see chapter 7 of the Player's Handbook for how group checks work".

I would agree with you if... they've replaced it with a better rule for Cosmic Horror and sanity... have they? If not that speaks to me as they feel it is good enough to cover that genre and they are concerned with rules for other genres.
So, yeah, if a supplement completely fails to mention existing mechanics, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's doing so because the existing mechanics are garbage.
That's a way to look at it... and I can't argue your opinion.

EDIT: Here's a better question... does the Ravenloft book consider insanity, madness and the mythos key to cosmic horror?
 
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I agree it's pulp (but still cosmic horror) but these are more frail/complex heroes, physically and mentally, than say Conan. Conan wouldn't have give a second thought to what happens to Letitia in the mansion with the spell that creates an illusion of Tic... but it haunts her mentally, even after she's out of the immediate danger and affects her relationship with Tic. Dianna's interaction with the Picanninny Demons leave her forever scarred and changed to the point that her final action in the final episode when juxtaposed against the fact that she is a child... it's quite simply horrifying when you think about it.
You're taking a lot of time to completely prove my point about SAN being worthless here lol.

Absolutely none of that is anything like the SAN mechanic in the DMG. Not a single word of it. I suggest you re-read the DMG if you think otherwise.

It is, however, pretty like the Fear and Stress mechanics in Ravenloft.
EDIT: I'm curious does the Ravenloft book spend time giving specific horror mechanics for each of the genres it covers?
There's an entire chapter of custom rules with suggestions as to how to apply them. Plus earlier on each type of horror gets a section on how to approach it.
 

I think it will be interesting to see how the mechanics in the new Ravenloft book match the DMG mechanics. If they don't, then, well, that pretty much says it all right there.
Ravenloft has two new "mechanics" in this area: Fear and Stress, and roll playing incentive Seeds of Fear. There are also Dark Gifts which are kinda cool.

Seeds of Fear:

Using Seeds of Fear

When a character encounters one of their Seeds of Fear, and interacts with the situation in a way that reinforces the seed, such as screaming or stumbling back from a horrid event, consider giving the character inspiration for their fear-focused reaction (see “Inspiration” in the Player’s Handbook). Once a character gains inspiration in this way, they shouldn’t be able to do so again until they finish a long rest.
These are basically incentives to have players role player their characters fear. Not my thing, but really outside the mechanics of Sanity and Madness in the DMG.

Fear:
An overwhelming foe or horrid monster doesn’t need magic or some supernatural ability to strike fear into the most stalwart adventurers. During any frightful encounter, you can call on a character to make a saving throw to resist being scared. The character must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened until the end of their next turn.
This just gives permission to DMs to give any monster they want a weaker version of a dragon's Frightening Presence. It supports horror, but really has nothing to do with Madness or Sanity.

Stress:
Charging headlong into terrifying situations is the stock in trade for adventurers. Among the Domains of Dread, though, periods of respite between harrowing experiences can be rare. Even the hardiest adventurers find themselves worn down over time, their performance suffering as they struggle to cope with the dread and despair.

Various circumstances might cause a character stress. Stress can be tracked numerically as a Stress Score, increasing in trying situations and decreasing with care. At your discretion, a character’s Stress Score might increase by 1 when one of the following situations occurs:
Basically this is granular penalty to all attack rolls, checks, and saving throws. Each point of Stress you get is another point you subtract from all your rolls.

This seems to work well with the Sanity variant ability in the manner @Ruin Explorer mentioned as it could be used in opposition. As you get more knowledge you Stress goes up, reducing your ability to succeed on Sanity checks, which could increase your stress..... However, this is not specifically mentioned.

Dark Gifts:
A character can select a Dark Gift from the “Dark Gifts Descriptions” section. This supernatural gift expresses both a mysterious power and insidious influence.

Example:

Echoing Soul

Your soul isn’t your own or, at least, it wasn’t always yours. Whether you’ve lived past lives, your soul was swapped into a different body, or you have a link connecting you to another being, you experience echoes from another life. These echoes grant you knowledge, talents, or even languages you can’t always explain, but they also intrude on your perceptions and beliefs unexpectedly.

Roll on or choose an option from the Soul Echoes table to determine the nature of this Dark Gift. Additionally, you gain the traits that follow.


Soul Echoes

d6Echo
1My soul is linked with that of a person elsewhere, perhaps another domain, world, or plane.
2I have lived many times before, my soul reincarnating each time I die rather than passing on.
3My consciousness was removed from my original body and implanted in this one.
4I was physically and spiritually merged with another being.
5I share my body with an intangible, otherworldly force.
6Time fractures around me, and I sometimes collide with my own past or future.
Channeled Prowess. You gain proficiency in two skills of your choice.

Inherent Tongue. You can speak, read, and write one additional language of your choice.

Intrusive Echoes. Immediately after you make an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw and roll a 1 on the d20, your soul’s memories emerge and overtake your perceptions and experiences. You might see people around you as someone other than who they are, or you become disoriented by a double-experience of the world around you. Roll on the Intrusive Echoes table to determine the effect of these vivid memories and perceptions. Once one of effects occur, these intrusive echoes can’t manifest again until you finish a short or long rest.


Intrusive Echoes

d6Effect
1You are charmed by a creature you can see (of the DM’s choice) for 1 minute or until the creature damages you.
2You are frightened by a creature you can see (of the DM’s choice) for 1 minute, or until the creature damages you.
3You perceive another time or place around you until the end of your next turn. During this time, you are blinded to your actual surroundings.
4You perceive a different time or place overlapping your surroundings. Your speed is halved until the end of your next turn.
5Memories and sensations overwhelm you. You are incapacitated until the start of your next turn.
6Your memory is one of triumph. You can reroll the ability check, attack roll, or saving throw that you just made. You must use the new roll.
These are basically little horror flavored benefits with a cost. The could be added to any campaign.
 
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You're taking a lot of time to completely prove my point about SAN being worthless here lol.

Absolutely none of that is anything like the SAN mechanic in the DMG. Not a single word of it. I suggest you re-read the DMG if you think otherwise.

It is, however, pretty like the Fear and Stress mechanics in Ravenloft.

There's an entire chapter of custom rules with suggestions as to how to apply them. Plus earlier on each type of horror gets a section on how to approach it.

How does Tic learn magic (EDIT: and Leti)? Does he/she go insane like some of the members of the lodge? How does TIc summon a shuggoth (I think that's what it is called) to fight for him? Is it by being insane and cackling mad? They learn magic and grow in their understanding of the mythos without going mad but there is a tangible mental toll at times. So I would say the San/Madness mechanic models this well enough. There's a chance you gain some minor madness from exposure but you can grow more knowledgeable and powerful in the mythos without going insane.
 
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That's not really the description of Sanity. And I do think the description of Wisdom as attentiveness... isn't the traditional definition of wisdom whatsoever and Charisma also does double duty as force of personality not just likeability and so on. But you know what this isn't really a hill I'm committed to dying on so if you feel D&D defines all attributes in line with their commonly understood definitions that's fine.




This has been my position and I've avoided arguing whether it's easy or hard because I think alot of that actually is tied up with how long you've played the game, your familiarity and the fact that different people find different cognitive processes easier or harder to deal with. That said there were a few people who were claiming you couldn't do X in D&D especially earlier in the thread... now whether this was just hyperbole or not I was addressing this specifically and somehow got pulled into a discussion about the minutae of cosmic horror and implementing it in a D&D game.

Now while the optional rules may not be to everyone's tastes because of the whole madness debate, and I'm honestly not interested in going down that road again as I am a firm believer that at this point HP Lovecraft is not the mythos or cosmic horror and so there is room for differing interpretations... @Ruin Explorer suggests a pretty simple add-on to the Sanity rules that pretty much satisfies the madness=understanding criteria that some feel is necessary for cosmic horror. See below. IMO (and apparently in Ruin Explorer's opinion as well) this isn't hard to implement and is reminiscent of the madness track in Unknown Armies 3rd ed (which honestly is a game I hold in pretty high regard). Now let me ask do you think this solution is too long (It was less than a page to explain and lay out)... do you think it would be too hard to implement at a mechanical level? Do you think it does a serviceable job at representing insanity in the cosmic horror genre?
@Ruin Explorer's "fix" is just a correction for the problem of using SAN as a stat for learning mythos which degrades it's already limited ability to represent insanity. It doesn't really fix the Madness rules issue, and it doesn't address the fact that this subsystem still doesn't encourage anything in play other than to avoid dealing with this subsystem.

Rules design really needs to look at what a system encourages in play -- what does this incentivize? This is most apparent with XP systems, as you can more easily see the connection because you have a "do this" statement followed by a "get this" statement. Kill a monster in 5e and you get XP. This is the only thing in the player's control, if in a limited way. Everything else in the 5e XP system is GM fiat, and so you're playing the GM to get the rewards. I know, though, that if I kill that monster I get the XP. I'm not sure if I sneak by that monster if I get XP, or if I drug it, or parley with it, because that determination is up to the GM in 5e -- both if it qualifies for XP and/or how much. Other possible awards are entirely up to the GM's whim. So, fundamentally, the 5e XP system prioritizes and incentivizes killing monsters. That this also allows easier access to anther incentive system in 5e -- getting magic items -- it reinforcement. It's easier to get magic items as loot from dead enemies who cannot complain than it is any other way. If we then look at the rules, the only place the players have a strong expectation of how they operate and can leverage that is in... wait for it... combat! So, 5e has at least three strong incentives for players to engage in combat. Pair this with the GM side strong directive to balance combat to party abilities, and you have the core of why it's often said that 5e is a game about fighting monsters (and taking their stuff). It's pretty hard to remove this from 5e. Some have moved to divorce XP from any direct actions of the players (milestone XP), but this doesn't shift the needle much do to the other reinforcements and loses a powerful tool for incentivizing play you do want with the XP system.

So taking this lens to the Sanity system, even @Ruin Explorer's version, and there is no benefit to engaging with this system. It's all bad. It's not integrated into play in such a way that I'm making a choice between leveraging this system for my benefit against cost -- it's all cost. I don't want to engage this system. Especially since triggers are all outside my control -- the GM can plop down an encounter that triggers it, and I can't do anything to stop it. I have very little ability to manipulate this system, to make choices within it. It directly competes for attention and resources with other systems that do aid me (ASIs being the only way to improve these, choosing a higher Sanity is at the expense of a lower score in one of the other attributes, etc). There's little to no incentive for me to want to engage this as a player. It is punitive, not fun.

And, for the record, how Sanity works in CoC has some of these same problems, but the way it functions there is more of a pacing mechanism like hp -- you have a much larger body of points, you have choices regarding risking those points (sometimes you don't, but there's a good bit you can choose to risk, like learning or using a spell that is undeniably useful at the cost of sanity), and you can recover these points in a straightforward and understood way during downtime. During play, though, like hitpoints, they operate as a pacing mechanism -- a signal to players of how much more they can push. Sanity in 5e doesn't do this -- it's a switch for Madness rules, which are all or nothing. Sanity in 5e does not act as a pacing mechanism -- that is still hitpoints. In CoC, though, fighting things is suicidal, so your hitpoints (can't recall off the top of my head what these are in BRP) are not a pacing mechanism, they are an occasionally referenced notation that may mean you can take the first hit. So, Sanity operates in that place, because it is the mechanism by which CoC games are paced.
 

EDIT: Here's a better question... does the Ravenloft book consider insanity, madness and the mythos key to cosmic horror?
It does not.

Cosmic Horror from VRGtR:

Cosmic Horror​


Cosmic horror revolves around the fear of personal insignificance. The genre is predicated on the idea of entities so vast and so genuinely beyond our comprehension that we cannot fathom their simplest motivations. To see them is to become lost in their magnitude and the evidence that we have never, will never, and could never matter to the cosmos at large.

The genre deals with how alien forces might alter us, perverting our expectations and understanding of autonomy, debasing our minds, and separating us from what makes us human. Sometimes it is the result of a process we invite. Other times it simply happens, an accident of circumstance we can only hope to survive.

However you spin it, this genre involves a loss of control, an absence of autonomy, and the sense of insignificance within an indifferent universe.

In addition, consider the following genre tropes when creating your cosmic horror domain:

  • There is no good or evil, no law or chaos.
  • Be vague. Cosmic horror emerges through imagination and the indescribable, not details.
  • At its best, cosmic horror makes characters feel gradually unmoored from their familiar reality.
  • Cosmic horror is about ineffable forces driven by motivations humans can’t understand.
  • Cults, forbidden books, and strange symbols form the cornerstones of cosmic horror.
  • The genre has a history of framing marginalized demographics as monstrous and stigmatizing mental illness. Be aware and avoid those tropes.

There is a lot more tables and advice, but that is the definition they are using
 

So taking this lens to the Sanity system, even @Ruin Explorer's version, and there is no benefit to engaging with this system. It's all bad. It's not integrated into play in such a way that I'm making a choice between leveraging this system for my benefit against cost -- it's all cost. I don't want to engage this system. Especially since triggers are all outside my control -- the GM can plop down an encounter that triggers it, and I can't do anything to stop it. I have very little ability to manipulate this system, to make choices within it. It directly competes for attention and resources with other systems that do aid me (ASIs being the only way to improve these, choosing a higher Sanity is at the expense of a lower score in one of the other attributes, etc). There's little to no incentive for me to want to engage this as a player. It is punitive, not fun.
The benefit is being able to decipher the ritual in the Necronomicon that is going to save you and possibly the seaside village you are in... I'm not really a fan of mechanics that incentivize you to purposefully make bad things happen to your character. As far as control... isn't not being in control, relevant, etc the point of cosmic horror? And fun is relative, if you are buying into a horror game you are purposefully engaging with things that would otherwise be unfun. Some people would say no game where their character ultimately goes insane is fun and if put in said game regardless of the incentive would avoid it. You have to have buy in for horror period.
 

Now my thoughts on WotC D&D horror
Rules design really needs to look at what a system encourages in play -- what does this incentivize? This is most apparent with XP systems, as you can more easily see the connection because you have a "do this" statement followed by a "get this" statement. Kill a monster in 5e and you get XP. This is the only thing in the player's control, if in a limited way.
Not necessarily. Milestone leveling is allowed and that is how we play. We don't use XP at all and just level when it makes sense to us.
 


Now my thoughts on WotC D&D horror

Not necessarily. Milestone leveling is allowed and that is how we play. We don't use XP at all and just level when it makes sense to us.
Yes, and the result is exactly what I say above -- you don't really decenter combat because of the other strong incentives to combat, you make XP a matter of GM whim (you get it when the GM decides you do), and you've lost a tool to incentivize play you want by not attaching XP to that.
 

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