D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Oofta]

Eh, I don’t think it is that cut and dried.

Some DMs cut down on encounters for verisimilitude reasons (your 7th level party investigating a small town just happens to come across 8 encounters CR 4 to 10).

Some DMs want to keep the story bits coming quick and snappy, so adding extra encounters to extend the arc is a negative.

Some DMs vary pacing during the campaign, but find that while the standard DMG pacing works for dungeons, it doesn’t work in other circumstances.

Some DMs might be great at creating fun dynamic encounters when they are only creating 3 or 4 of them, but ask them to make 8 in a row and the quality suffers.

In all those cases, holding the DMs to a 6 to 8 encounter adventuring day does lead to encounters that are slogs, while a lighter pacing schedule (that is still quicker than gritty realism) would lead to an improved game.

Also, if a 6 encounter, 2 short rest is your MEDIAN, you are still looking at several 9-10 encounter days.

There are multiple ways around the issues. The encounters don't even have to be particularly linked.

All I can say is I've been doing it since 5E was released. Ultimately I don't see it as an issue inherent to the system, it's an issue with DMs. There have to be some baseline assumptions on how the game works.

 

[tetrasodium]

Just because 4e didn't do something correctly doesn't mean it can't be done.

In those other games, playing a wizard feels plenty different than playing a burglar. And if you want other examples of more "limited" wizard look at warhammer frpg 2nd ed, where wizard use "color" magic and specialize in one. If you are a fire wizard, you do fire magic... end of story. Gurps is another.

Anyway, what I was saying was not so much "do it like troika and fix D&D" Rather, I was pointing out that playing other systems will make you see the problem in D&D a lot more.

And finally, does a low level caster not feel like a caster in D&D? No. the problem only appears at mid and higher level. So the solution is simple - limit the number of spells a caster can have ready. That way no caster can fix everything.

5e already does that

Spoiler

Except they don't need to wait till mid & high levels. Like driving a new car off the lot it starts the moment they hit level three. and continues to slow at level six eight & ten. You're suggesting a nerf to casters so you can address a hypothetical problem that only exists in a contrived whiteroom scenario that starts with a quantum spell list & any reason at all to prevent noncasters from using their skills rather than consuming a spell slot.

 

[Mind of tempest]

There are multiple ways around the issues. The encounters don't even have to be particularly linked.

All I can say is I've been doing it since 5E was released. Ultimately I don't see it as an issue inherent to the system, it's an issue with DMs. There have to be some baseline assumptions on how the game works.

look rules are made to stop the worst of dm or player behaviour thus blaming it on dm's is not going to solve anything unless your willing to personally go and correct all these dm.

 

[Oofta]

look rules are made to stop the worst of dm or player behaviour thus blaming it on dm's is not going to solve anything unless your willing to personally go and correct all these dm.

So I can't state an opinion? I offer advice and what I do for this on a pretty regular basis.

The dev team had to make assumptions and compromises. No game is perfect but this particular issue is not that hard to work around.

 

[ph0rk]

All I can say is I've been doing it since 5E was released. Ultimately I don't see it as an issue inherent to the system, it's an issue with DMs. There have to be some baseline assumptions on how the game works.

The system doesn't come ought and plainly say that deviating from the suggested rest schedule changes class balance - it should, and offer some alternative rest schedules or resource recovery schemes to maintain that balance for different games. Gritty Realism, for example, doesn't do much if there still happens to be 1-2 encounters per Long rest.

 

[Sithlord]

The system doesn't come ought and plainly say that deviating from the suggested rest schedule changes class balance - it should, and offer some alternative rest schedules or resource recovery schemes to maintain that balance for different games. Gritty Realism, for example, doesn't do much if there still happens to be 1-2 encounters per Long rest.

There is a section on changing how short as long rests work if you want to use them.

 

[TheSword]

Uhm, no it isn't. All your described actions fall squarely outside of existing mechanics, in the same way that jumping to the moon or lifting a castle do.

Their existence as 'options' is not equivalent to explicitly defined spells with mechanical support which take up half the book.

They are within existing mechanics. The PhB explicitly says grapple and shove are not exhaustive. Players can take skill or stat contests to achieve effects. That is in the rules of 5e

It’s adjudicated by the DM, but so is everything in 5e.

If you’re frustrated that you don’t have options in combat first look and see if this is an element in your game. If it isn’t maybe think a bit more creatively.

Casters aren’t as good as martials at these abilities because generally they don’t have the athletics or acrobatics to perform them as well. Neither can the benefit from the follow up attacks you can take afterwards.

So the wizard uses mage hand to throw sand in the Orcs face (debatable as it could be considered an attack). Then what does he do to follow up? Go toe to toe with shocking grasp? Mage hand has a 10lb limit which seriously cramps your style when flipping a table.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

It would be cool if the spells could be "re-skinned" as special abilities.

I've often wondered at preparing a curated spell list that could reasonably be under the umbrella of heroic abilities.

Didn’t Ashley Johnson from Critical Role play a character in SKT’s limited series of play throughs that was basically an artificer whose spells were skinned as little gizmos?

 

[DnD Warlord]

They are within existing mechanics. The PhB explicitly says grapple and shove are not exhaustive. Players can take skill or stat contests to achieve effects. That is in the rules of 5e

View attachment 137188
It’s adjudicated by the DM, but so is everything in 5e.

If you’re frustrated that you don’t have options in combat first look and see if this is an element in your game. If it isn’t maybe think a bit more creatively.

Casters aren’t as good as martials at these abilities because generally they don’t have the athletics or acrobatics to perform them as well. Neither can the benefit from the follow up attacks you can take afterwards.

So the wizard uses mage hand to throw sand in the Orcs face (debatable as it could be considered an attack). Then what does he do to follow up? Go toe to toe with shocking grasp? Mage hand has a 10lb limit which seriously cramps your style when flipping a table.

What makes a fighter better at athletics or acrobatics then a hexblade or a paliden or a war cleric or even a bald singer? I know rogues get expertise but that seems to not help the fighter much...

in fact many classes get bonus skills fighter don’t get athletics or acrobatics for free so isn’t even training in one a function of background?

 

[Ancalagon]

5e already does that

Spoiler

View attachment 137184

Except they don't need to wait till mid & high levels. Like driving a new car off the lot it starts the moment they hit level three. and continues to slow at level six eight & ten. You're suggesting a nerf to casters so you can address a hypothetical problem that only exists in a contrived whiteroom scenario that starts with a quantum spell list & any reason at all to prevent noncasters from using their skills rather than consuming a spell slot.

But that's the number of slots, not the number of spell known.

Let's talk about a level 7 wizard. Let's asume that he has found some spells but not a ton (so, 1 per level). Level 7 is definitely "mid level" but it's where spellcasters start being pretty powerful so it's good point to look at. Let's also say he has 18 intelligence.

This wizard's spellbook will have 4 cantrips + 6 starting spells + 12 "level up" spells + 7 "found" spells, for a grand total of 29 spells. Each spell is a tool to fix a "problem" - some challenge or obstacle you can face in your adventures. Sure, the wizard can only prepare 11 of these... but 15 with cantrips. And they have ritual magic. Let's just assume they know 1 ritual per level, and this wizard now has NINETEEN TOOLS in his pockets to fix problems.

Let us make a spell list

Cantrips:
Ray of frost
Light
Minor illusion
Mage hand.

... maybe I should stop here? This loadout is already equal to some of Troika's! magic users! This PC can attack and slow down enemies, make light, make illusions, and pick up things at a distance. If you knew someone in real life with those powers, you would call them AN AWESOME WIZARD.

... but no, let us continue

Level 1
shield
Fog Cloud
disguise self
Ritual: detect magic

Level 2
invisibility
Suggestion
Misty step
Ritual

Level 3

fireball
dispel magic
Fly
Ritual Leomund's Tiny Hut
Ritual Water Breathing. (I decided to put 2 at level 3)

Level 4
wall of fire
Evard's Black Tentacle

Look at the number of things this guy can do! All the problems he can solve! He can fly, deal with magic, protect the camp at night, deal with water adventures, control areas and do damage, mess with the mind of people, pretend to be someone else, teleport short distances, protect himself with a magical shield. this isn't a "fire mage", this is a "do almost anything" mage. And there are still a few more spells in his books that are more "niche" but very useful to have on certain daies.

This isn't some kind of theoretical mage, this could be a real PC with a real spell list. Edit: it's probably not even the best spell list by far.