• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Allow the Long Rest Recharge to Honor Skilled Play or Disallow it to Ensure a Memorable Story

Allow Long Rest for Skilled Play or disallow for Climactic/Memorable Story


MarkB

Legend
Okay, long rest discussion is weird and most of the people seem to miss the point, so let's steer it a little.

So, it's the first session, 30 minutes in. The party develops some kind of brilliant plan that should let them dispose of the antagonist.

What ya gonna do?

What I personally would do, is "Yeah, that's pretty clever and it should work... Let's think, why it wouldn't?"
30 minutes in? In most games I've played / run, the PCs haven't even made it out of the tavern in 30 minutes, let alone met and identified the big bad, and concocted a foolproof plan to foil their evil scheme. If they've managed all that, then just tell them they've won D&D, because there's not much chance of keeping up with them through an extended campaign.

And if I'm playing that game, I'm not going to be particularly interested in coming up with ways to thwart our own plan. I'd be far happier for my DM to come up with a random sidequest or two to tide us through the rest of the session, then work up a new direction for the campaign once it's over.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
No. Priorities don’t imply conflict. In fact they imply the absence of conflict because where priorities exist, it is established that they have the right of way, if you will.

No matter how late I may be for work, speeding down the road, the ambulance with the sirens on has the priority. I yield, understanding they have the right of way. Even though I want to get to work timely, I recognize the need of the ambulance to go somewhere unhindered is always presumptively greater.

Conflict may occur if I IGNORED the priority. Say if I refused to get out of the way of the siren-blaring-ambulance. But that’s only after I contravene the established order.
Wait, what? You say that priorities are, well, priorities because they have right of way, so to speak, but then say that two priorities cannot conflict because they both would have right of way? That's rather interesting logic, and I'm afraid it doesn't work.

Skilled play is absolutely at odd with GM curation of story. In the latter, the GM is altering the fiction to improve or channel play to meet specific story beats. Pacing is important, rising action, hitting the climax. These are part and parcel of GM curation of story. Watch an episode of Critical Role and this is what you see -- the GM curating the action so that the story is tight and engaging.

On the other hand, skilled play is antithetical to this manipulation by the GM. Here the GM is to be a neutral arbiter of the world, presenting it without making changes. Any reaction is a direct and clear result of specific party actions. This way, the players are always leveraging the rules and their resources to succeed. Any story that arises is incidental to play -- it's a second order result, not the primary reason for play. Instead the primary reason for play is to, well, win -- survive the dungeon, improve the PCs, and do it again.

These two things directly conflict. If the GM makes any changes for purposes of curating the story, those directly conflict with the player's ability to manage the fiction through skilled play -- because that change by the GM is not a direct result of the PCs actions, but is, instead, to counter them to create a specific result, usually one of pacing or to create a memorable climax.

There's a common refrain that the point of playing D&D is to create an exciting, memorable story. I believe @iserith often says this. However, there's a difference between finding that story though how the players decide to engage a prepared situation -- ie, the story is more of a war story -- and when the GM is actively curating that story during play by making changes to facilitate what the GM thinks makes for a better story.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Create a story? Yikes, I have better things to do, like provide reasonable obstacles and complications in response to player actions. Who has time for story? This isn't campfire time.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
There's a common refrain that the point of playing D&D is to create an exciting, memorable story. I believe @iserith often says this. However, there's a difference between finding that story though how the players decide to engage a prepared situation -- ie, the story is more of a war story -- and when the GM is actively curating that story during play by making changes to facilitate what the GM thinks makes for a better story.
Since the goals of play are that everyone have a good time and create an exciting, memorable story by playing, these are first and foremost in the minds of the players and DM in an ideal group in my view. As a player, all decisions must go through this filter before the player describes what they want to do. As DM, every time I have to narrate the result of the adventurers' actions, again, it must pass through this filter. Any action or narration, any move I as DM have the monsters or NPCs make, must be aligned with the goals of play or they simply cannot be brought into play. To do otherwise risks "losing" at D&D 5e.

Are we, players and DM both, "curating" the story by doing this? Or just playing the game according to the goals the rules set forth?
 


iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Except that is neither the motivation not the filter for many games, never mind something that should be taken as standard.
Then the question is why isn't it because it's right there on page 3 of the basic rules. The game is telling us what the goal is. Achieving that goal is how the group "wins" at D&D.

But anyway, that wasn't my question. Are the players and DM pursuing the goals of play "curating" the story? Or just playing the game according to the goals the rules set forth?
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Since the goals of play are that everyone have a good time and create an exciting, memorable story by playing, these are first and foremost in the minds of the players and DM in an ideal group in my view. As a player, all decisions must go through this filter before the player describes what they want to do. As DM, every time I have to narrate the result of the adventurers' actions, again, it must pass through this filter. Any action or narration, any move I as DM have the monsters or NPCs make, must be aligned with the goals of play or they simply cannot be brought into play. To do otherwise risks "losing" at D&D 5e.

Are we, players and DM both, "curating" the story by doing this? Or just playing the game according to the goals the rules set forth?

That's pretty much what curation is on like a definitional level.
 


Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
The difference between being a motivation, and the motivation, is significant. Your question is pertinent of course, but I think you'll find that there are two sides to this story. Some groups curate story, to whatever degree, but many other do not curate story at all. All I was saying is that creating an exciting and memorable story might be, I suppose, a goal for many groups, but that doesn't make it the organizing principle of play. It isn't informing table play in every case, even if it's something that, loosely speaking, people might say they'd like as an outcome. Sometimes it is of course, no doubt, but I'd careful how widely you use that brush to paint general play expectations, that's all.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
The difference between being a motivation, and the motivation, is significant. Your question is pertinent of course, but I think you'll find that there are two sides to this story. Some groups curate story, to whatever degree, but many other do not curate story at all. All I was saying is that creating an exciting and memorable story might be, I suppose, a goal for many groups, but that doesn't make it the organizing principle of play. It isn't informing table play in every case, even if it's something that, loosely speaking, people might say they'd like as an outcome. Sometimes it is of course, no doubt, but I'd careful how widely you use that brush to paint general play expectations, that's all.
Notably I said this is what I would consider an "ideal group" to pursue. Since the ideal itself is in writing on the very first page of the rules, right after the table of contents. I know for a fact that there are many people who don't even read that or think about it even if they have read it. They just do what they learned from their cousin or from a YouTube video or whatever and hopefully with some luck they stumble into a "win" when the session is fun for everyone and an exciting, memorable tale is told by playing. Often enough, they aren't so lucky. See any RPG forum for examples.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to play a game of Monopoly without trying to bankrupt any of my opponents. I know the game has a goal, but eh, why bother pursuing it? :)
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top