D&D 5E 5e has everything it needs for Dark Sun

[Neonchameleon]

Clear water exists, Neon. You just can't see it.

Psionicists use Power points to pump their Talents, Disciplines, or Sciences.

And Aberrant Minds have power points but called something else. All that is different is the name - the points become fully fungible at level 6. This clear water does not exist other than in name.

They don't cast spells.

So the 3.5 Psion wasn't psychic? They certainly had their powers formatted like spells. This clear water is once again in name only

They can function as battlefield manipulators, healers, blasters, and Gish.

Oh look. So can other casters. There is no clear water here either

They're telepaths and telekineticists.

Hmm... Do sorcerers have spells to do this? Yes. There is no clear water here.

They're Psychic Chiurgeons and Metacreatives.

So they have weird names. I never disputed there was a name. Can sorcerers heal? Divine soul can.

They use their will to directly modify reality rather than spellcraft and ancient languages.

So do sorcerers

There's a whole boatload of mechanics you could use to create a Psionicist class that feels vastly different from "Wizard" or "Sorcerer" to a similar degree as the Artificer or Warlock does.

Then stop saying they exist and start producing some of these mythical mechanics because so far all you have done is given odd names to sorcerer stuff.

Years ago I tried to build a proper Psionicist out of the Mystic mess. The first thing I did? Narrowed down the Disciplines list. Then I gave them a few unique abilities.

Sounds like a good start.

Second, the ability to concentrate on two Psionic Powers at the same time. With a curated list of powers they couldn't stack a whole mess of crazy big fun stuff, but it was a neat twist that made them feel super different.

This could actually be pretty interesting. I'll give you that - but don't really see why it's pure psychic.

Third, Consumptive Power. Each day they could sacrifice a limited number of their Hit Points directly as if they were Power Points for use in powers. 10hp/long rest was the maximum. And it reduced your max HP by that amount, so having someone toss a heal didn't instantly fix it.

Why is that not something a sorcerer could do? And I was doing something of the sort with Malediction Invoked in 4e and have proposed it for warlocks as a blood sacrifice - and blood mages are a thing. Again far from psionic exclusive

Add in some Psionic Quanta, which functioned similarly to Eldritch Invocations but could often be boosted with Power Points, and voila!

You had a unique and interesting class that wasn't a Sorcerer or a Wizard.

And what new character concepts did it fit?

If I could do that, 3 years ago, based on the UA Mystic, surely WotC can do better.

So ... to sum up the big thing that distinguishes it is that you created an entirely new class that could concentrate on two spells at a time.

Not seeing specifically psychic stuff there - just you moving into deliberately untapped design space and giving it the name psychic.

And 5e has already got some psychic stuff. It can't do that so that's not the distinguishing feature of psionics. And doesn't as far as I know even have a history in D&D

 

[Minigiant]

My personal take would be a psionic class that acts something like a spell point sorcerer with a curated spell list and all the other classes just get a dose of flavor-text, a general rule for defiling when casting, and occasionally an appropriate subclass, but no mechanical changes. YMMV.

I'd do a psion(ist) class that'd look like the 4e one, 4-5 subclasses, a defiling rule. The new spell lists, weapons, and armors would be optional rules. The many subclasses are as important as the psion(icist) class.

 

[Shardstone]

Every time someone says they want a Psion class, someone comes out to take a dump all over their idea.

There is nothing wrong with wanting more classes. There is nothing virtuous in people wanting to stay limited to just the current suite of classes.

I doubt we'll ever see the Mystic/Psion return though. It seems the class is dead, so I made my own, the Psychic, to fill the void for my tables.

If Dark Sun does happen, we'll probably just get more sub-classes, psionic spells, and Wild Talents like Supernatural Gifts. That'd make the most sense with how conservative WotC is.

Here's a link to my Psychic class btw for those interested: The Psychic - A Class It is somewhere between a monk and a warlock.

 

[Yaarel]

For the defiling rule, it should be a temptation mechanic.

I suggest:

• Any time that an arcane spellcaster casts a spell from the highest spell-level, it triggers the defiling water-destroying blight.

Thus a level 5 Wizard can safely master spells from slots 1 and 2, but if casing a slot 3 spell, the Wizard defiles the environment.

 

[Steampunkette]

And Aberrant Minds have power points but called something else. All that is different is the name - the points become fully fungible at level 6. This clear water does not exist other than in name.

So the 3.5 Psion wasn't psychic? They certainly had their powers formatted like spells. This clear water is once again in name only

Oh look. So can other casters. There is no clear water here either


Hmm... Do sorcerers have spells to do this? Yes. There is no clear water here.

So they have weird names. I never disputed there was a name. Can sorcerers heal? Divine soul can.

So do sorcerers

Then stop saying they exist and start producing some of these mythical mechanics because so far all you have done is given odd names to sorcerer stuff.

Sounds like a good start.

This could actually be pretty interesting. I'll give you that - but don't really see why it's pure psychic.

Why is that not something a sorcerer could do? And I was doing something of the sort with Malediction Invoked in 4e and have proposed it for warlocks as a blood sacrifice - and blood mages are a thing. Again far from psionic exclusive

And what new character concepts did it fit?

So ... to sum up the big thing that distinguishes it is that you created an entirely new class that could concentrate on two spells at a time.

Not seeing specifically psychic stuff there - just you moving into deliberately untapped design space and giving it the name psychic.

And 5e has already got some psychic stuff. It can't do that so that's not the distinguishing feature of psionics. And doesn't as far as I know even have a history in D&D

Your tendency to try and equate things to each other and ignore literally anything that makes them different is the problem, Neon. You keep trying to strip away allllll the flavor and identity and pretend that the mechanics are all you need. That ain't it, chief. The structure, the crunch, the flavor... all of them need to be there.

I think it's clear you're never going to understand my position, and I'm never going to agree with yours.

 

[Yaarel]

The problem is, psionic fans disagree with each other.

For example. Some fans want psionics to stop being a pariah and to use normal mechanics. But some fans want alternative mechanics.

Perhaps the Warlock mechanics might be standard enough in 5e for the first group, while different enough from the Wizard for the second group.

In any case, it is the psionic fans who need to find common ground. The designers cant really do anything until then.

 

[Steampunkette]

The problem is, psionic fans disagree with each other.

For example. Some fans want psionics to stop being a pariah and to use normal mechanics. But some fans want alternative mechanics.

Perhaps the Warlock mechanics might be standard enough in 5e for the first group, while different enough from the Wizard for the second group.

In any case, it is the psionic fans who need to find common ground. The designers cant really do anything until then.

The designers could literally just take the Sorcerer, rename it's spells to Powers, make it use spell points, and call it a Psionicist, and we'd be stuck with it. No matter how much anyone railed against it.

The designers can do whatever the hell they want... and in the end, they -clearly- have their own specific ideas about what a Psionicist is or isn't.

And since Mearls -wrote- the PHB3 with it's Psionics for 4e, with the help of Bruce Cordell who wrote both the Complete Psionics Handbook -and- Expanded Psionics Handbook for 3e... I think we have a guideline to what -they- think a Psionicist is.

And it ain't no subclass.

 

[Yaarel]

The designers could literally just take the Sorcerer, rename it's spells to Powers, make it use spell points, and call it a Psionicist, and we'd be stuck with it. No matter how much anyone railed against it.

The designers can do whatever the hell they want... and in the end, they -clearly- have their own specific ideas about what a Psionicist is or isn't.

And since Mearls -wrote- the PHB3 with it's Psionics for 4e, with the help of Bruce Cordell who wrote both the Complete Psionics Handbook -and- Expanded Psionics Handbook for 3e... I think we have a guideline to what -they- think a Psionicist is.

And it ain't no subclass.

Heh, I suspect designers originally intended to abolish psionics for D&D 5e. Except for the ongoing calls for it from psionic fans. So, any attention at all seems to be to placate psionic fans. Even then, the designers seem to want it to be part of Dark Sun, and thus keep it removed from 5e core.

For me psionics is important, and I want it normal and core.

I agree, the Psion must be its own class with its own subclasses, with its own "psionic" mindful flavor.

 

[Steampunkette]

Heh, I suspect designers originally intended to abolish psionics for D&D 5e. Except for the ongoing calls for it from psionic fans. So, any attention at all seems to be to placate psionic fans. Even then, the designers seem to want it to be part of Dark Sun, and thus keep it removed from 5e core.

For me psionics is important, and I want it normal and core.

I agree, the Psion must be its own class with its own subclasses, with its own "psionic" mindful flavor.

Oh, I definitely agree with Psions being important and I would love for them to be core. I just don't think they will be, even in 6e and 7e.

But I don't think WotC ever intended to abolish psionics from 5e. So long as Mind Flayers and Intellect Devourers and stuff are still a part of the Brand Identity, psionics will always be a part of D&D. I think it's a matter of most people thinking of Psionics as it's "Own thing" off to the side.

Though if we could've had Psionicists in the PHB instead of Rangers I'd have been like "Yup. Do that. Please."

From WotC's perspective, though... I think it's a matter of making sure Psionics are "Different Enough" from core spellcasting classes in their implementation that they come across as more than Sorcerers with mind powers. And when you're designing 12 classes for a book, 5 of which are full casters, 2 of which are half-casters, and one of which is a unique Short-Rest caster... You're gonna blow a hell of a lot of creative juice trying to get those 12 on paper.

Giving yourself time to look at how they wind up functioning, space to think up new ways to do old things, and a chance to let the flavor marinate in your mind...? It's pretty important.

For example: no matter how hard we petitioned @Morrus I doubt he'd add a Psionicist to A5e for Launch, even if somehow everyone agreed on a specific format and style for the class at this point. Because that part of the book is practically already written. And even if it wasn't, that'd be a pretty massive undertaking for a crew that just got done doing 12 other full classes.

I wouldn't even expect to see something like that as a Stretch Goal on the Kickstarter...

(But I could be pleasantly surprised, for certain >.>)

 

[Yaarel]

Oh, I definitely agree with Psions being important and I would love for them to be core. I just don't think they will be, even in 6e and 7e.

But I don't think WotC ever intended to abolish psionics from 5e. So long as Mind Flayers and Intellect Devourers and stuff are still a part of the Brand Identity, psionics will always be a part of D&D. I think it's a matter of most people thinking of Psionics as it's "Own thing" off to the side.

Though if we could've had Psionicists in the PHB instead of Rangers I'd have been like "Yup. Do that. Please."

From WotC's perspective, though... I think it's a matter of making sure Psionics are "Different Enough" from core spellcasting classes in their implementation that they come across as more than Sorcerers with mind powers. And when you're designing 12 classes for a book, 5 of which are full casters, 2 of which are half-casters, and one of which is a unique Short-Rest caster... You're gonna blow a hell of a lot of creative juice trying to get those 12 on paper.

Giving yourself time to look at how they wind up functioning, space to think up new ways to do old things, and a chance to let the flavor marinate in your mind...? It's pretty important.

For example: no matter how hard we petitioned @Morrus I doubt he'd add a Psionicist to A5e for Launch, even if somehow everyone agreed on a specific format and style for the class at this point. Because that part of the book is practically already written. And even if it wasn't, that'd be a pretty massive undertaking for a crew that just got done doing 12 other full classes.

I wouldn't even expect to see something like that as a Stretch Goal on the Kickstarter...

(But I could be pleasantly surprised, for certain >.>)

In the case of Mindflayer, 5e reduced "psionic" down to a simple tag for spell-like abilities.

Actually, that is fine with me.

As long as the Psion can "cast spells" by means of internal mindful power, without material components, and even without somatic and verbal components, then that feels psionic enough for me. In other words, psionic classes "dont cast spells", they "use spell-like abilities".

If someone wants a psionic Bard, just apply the "psionic" tag, thus eschew components.

But the Psion is an important concept, and deserves its own class to flesh it out.

If the Psion was in the first Players Handbook, there would be less redundancy, because many things that would have been mainly for the Psion, ended up being given to other classes because of the delay.