D&D General On Skilled Play: D&D as a Game

From what I can tell successful DW play looks much the same as unsuccessful DW play. Like over the course of a campaign how can I tell which players played the game most skillful and which the least?
Well, it sounds like at least for @Manbearcat that would be the players who's PCs achieved their objectives over and over again.

I guess I personally am just less aggressive in some sense. I don't disagree with Manbearcat. I just, perhaps, have a looser form of play, or else I am concentrating less on the very most intense parts of the narrative. There's a lot of cases where, if I see that the players have some focus on an objective and the current scene has served its purpose, that I will just let them decide where they go next without some wrestling contest, and skip on to another interesting point in the story.
 

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A big part of what we seem to be discussing is the subtlety with which agendas of play are presented and carried out, whether in reference to the explicit ones that are so definitive to games like BITD and DW, or to the implicit ones of any other game.

My experience of Story Now games are that they certainly instruct you (the GM) to add to the fiction (in ways that don't contradict previously established fiction) in order to complicate the lives of team PC on a moment to moment basis, especially on failed rolls. Done with insufficient GM skill will absolutely create a scenario where the players will feel as though the story itself is choking them in this way. In Masks at least, the agendas concerning being a fan of the player characters, and the advice about not doing too many hard moves, as well about pacing, are framed as devices to help the GM not do that. This is of course, also the case outside of Story Now play, a DND GM that adds monsters that weren't there before into the area the players escape to because that GM is trying to keep their players in hot water can do the same. Its literally a question of pacing, tension, and basic scenario design whether the players are having too much pressure applied to them.

The difference is that Story Now games approach this question from an aspect of reminding the GM that allowing the tension to release and players to have their victory is their job, with some aids. DND and other games more like it, handle this by framing the GM as a game designer, and then teaching them how to create scenarios where this will naturally occur (once players have overcome the challenges, they are victorious and the tension naturally releases.) This requires the GM to learn two stances, and transition between them-- a designer stance where they engage in level and scenario design, and referee stance where they 'run' the content they've created. Reading GM facing material outlines the guidelines and tools for both. But there's also, I'm conjecturing, essentially a third 'Director' stance that hybridizes the two stances so design can take place during what would otherwise be referee stance, and GMs dip their toe into it to greater or lesser degrees in traditional games.

If you've ever been playing DND, and decided to add monsters, or subtract monsters to adjust the pacing and tension of the adventure during play, that's Director Stance. I would argue that in many ways Story Now GMs live in Director Stance, and that's what the system of moves (as it relates to GMing) is actually codifying. The way Agendas are presented are the things that they are using their moves to try and achieve, the right balance where the fiction is believable (according to genre norms and the table's tastes), where players feel they have agency, and where interesting things happen everyone explores together.

The controversy of Director Stance, is that since the ideal is to play to find out what happens, for everyone including the GM, the idea that what happens would be curated in this way is a naturally occurring tension that BITD (the system I've been recently reading in spare hours in preparation to eventually run it a bit) resolves by disclaiming some of those decisions to the players so that no one holds all the cards, making the result intrinsically emergent. I'm speaking of the 'Judgement Calls' section of the rules, where players get to decide whether a solution to a problem is reasonable, while the GM determines what the problems for them to solve are. In what's being referred to as GSP (and probably in my more lenient variety of SP that includes character optimization and such) the GM has the final say of whether the solution is reasonable (although in most cases, the rules provide an authority for the players and GM to defer to, which is a soft restriction on the GM's own ability to Calvinball.)

In both cases, there is an effort being made by the rules which parcel out responsibility to the participants to convey the proper mindset that responsibility should be approached with. For example, players in BITD could certainly decide that seducing a regular non-magical door into opening with gentle caresses is a reasonable approach, but they wouldn't because it would break the rules of the shared fiction and damage the tone of the game they're striving for. They have the power to Calvinball, to an extent, but a sense of how that power is to be used that Calvinball lacks. Meanwhile in DND, the GM certainly could drop a random army of Dragons on low level players for guaranteed TPK, but they're told their job is designing an engaging scenario so again, the power to Calvinball with instructions that you shouldn't (which are implicit in the encounter design rules, and often explicit in GM facing material.)

GSP/SP seems to be the intersection of a well designed scenario adjudicated fairly, with the choices of players within that context that creates an environment rich with agency and consequences from that agency that follow a logical progression. Director Stance empowers the GM to 'break' this by performing ad-hoc modifications to the scenario that could but don't have to strain the intrinsic 'competitive integrity' that was built into it if Designer Stance was performed correctly. Its a powerful tool that allows the GM to fix mistakes made in Designer Stance, but its powerful enough to break the game if they misuse it to say, preserve tension that the players 'fairly' earned the resolution of.

Judgement Calls in BITD give players some of that same power to damage the 'natural' integrity of the scenario with unrealistic solutions to problems, while allowing them to make the imaginary space even more 'fair' by checking the GM's power to Calvinball them by insisting to the GM that a fair solution to a problem, is indeed fair.

The real controversy here, is probably down to how much you trust PCs in the abstract, not to Calvinball you with that power. For some, the need to use every resource at hand to win would pollute their use of that responsibility, while for others their sense of duty to the quality of the fiction itself would stay their hand. DND doesn't really care in the same way, because the only person with the power to Calvinball has no motivation to do so, since they aren't trying to win in the first place, just create an engaging scenario, Calvinball would be antithetical to their goals unless they've convinced themselves that 'fairness' doesn't matter, which is how we get some forms of railroading where the GM Calvinballs the players out of the logical consequences of their actions in a way that is both insistent and obvious.

Really great post.

The only 2 caveats I would add are:

1) Calvinball GMing PBtA games is held in check explicitly by the reality that (a) the game explicitly forbids it through the accretion of agenda/principles, (b) the game fundamentally works when you don’t Calvinball, and (c) everything is table facing so Calvinballing doesn’t work (because it will stand out so much and the players will call you on it)!

2) Player Calvinballing in Blades is shut down because (a) the game works without it, (b) it expressly undermines the competitive integrity of play (Agenda and Best Practices), and (c) Don’t Be a Weasel p 183.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think where AA's thoughts (and perhaps yours if you also subscribe to those thoughts) falls flat is I've seen him express a sentiment of "in PBtA systems, Complications are going to arise whether Team PC acts or doesn't act so, effectively, the GM has mandate (or maybe even responsibility) to just Soft Move the game into (basically) oblivion (meaning GMs have unbridled framing and re-framing authority by just looping soft moves ad nauseum) if they wish. Consequently, the Skilled Play signal (that is the player's ability to actually wrest control of the gamestate presently and future states downstream of this present gamestate) is effectively muted because of the GM's authority and responsibility to endlessly erect obstacles in the course of merely running the game."

<snip>

GMs don't have the authority and don't have the means to just Soft Move the game into whatever gamestate they feel is best served by their will at the moment.
You seem to be treating as equivalent (i) players can shape the fiction so as to bind the GM and (ii) players can engage in skilled play.

I don't think I agree. The former - ie (i) - is true of Prince Valiant and Burning Wheel. Neither of those systems grants the GM unbridled framing and reframing authority by looping soft moves ad nauseum nor the means to soft move the game into whatever gamestate they feel is best served by their will at the moment. In both of them players can exercise significant control over the gamestate. For instance, in my Prince Valiant game the PCs defeated but didn't kill some Huns, converted them to Christianity, and then recruited them to be the light cavalry auxiliary of their warband. This additional force has then been very helpful in subsequent battles as they have crossed Anatolia and travelled to Cyprus.

There is little resource use or optimisation in Prince Valiant, but some - eg one of the players expended a Storyteller Certificate at a key moment to defeat a "dragon" (a giant crocodile), and this depended on him being able to confront it in the water which he was able to do because he had previously made decisions to build up his athletic ability (via the Agility skill) in anticipation of just this sort of thing. The PCs being dragon slayers ensured their welcome reception by the Emperor at Constantinople, which was important for them gaining permission to cross Anatolia on their crusade.

But I don't see that it is very helpful to characterise this as "skilled play". I think it's good play, in the sense that it is engaged with the fiction and with the system and (at least for the participants) produces fun RPGing. I don't know what Greg Stafford would think of it, but I assume it falls at least broadly within the bounds of what he envisaged Prince Valiant play should look like. But to me it looks nothing like Gygaxian play or any sort of descendant of it. For instance, notions of "risk" and "reward" are doing basically no work. Yes, the players make decisions that earn their PCs Fame and hence enable them to improve their PCs, but while not quite the same as the XP pacing mechanism in 4e it comes pretty close - it's hard for me to imagine non-degenerate Prince Valiant play which won't earn Fame, because (p 31) "Fame is the cumulative measure of a character’s actions . . . accumulated by performing deeds, both in combat and in peaceful endeavor" and non-degenerate Prince Valiant play consists in the performance of deeds either in combat or peaceful endeavour!

Dungeon World has more moving parts than Prince Valiant. And I can see how there is cleverness in players using these to establish binding fiction. But I'm not seeing the risk/reward dynamic and how that feeds into the basic play experience. In Gygaxian play, if I play poorly my PC will die; and if I play too cautiously (eg never opening any doors for fear of what might be behind them) I will earn no XP and my PC will not advance, and I'll be stuck in a situation of boring play where nothing happens. I think the "gig gud" phrase may already have been used in this thread - and it has a truth about it in the Gygaxian context, in that if I don't git gud then play will just suck.

But is this true in DW? I don't think it's true in Prince Valiant. I don't think it's true in BW (I love playing BW and I haven't git gud - my PC's skills have not advanced much, and my comparison here is my GM who is the spreadsheet optimiser I mentioned upthread who, when he plays BW, has his PC's skills and stats climbing at a pretty steady clip). My reading and limited experience of DW play makes me wonder whether it's true there as it is in classic D&D.
 

pemerton

Legend
I had forgotten how prescriptive the 1e PhB is by RAW. It feels like it is going to invite the player to do some non-mechanical creation... "and possibly give some family background (and name a next of kin as heir to the possessions of the character if he or she should meet an untimely death) to personify the character." The DMG total power over secondary skills (if used) to the DM and that the age was explicitly random.
And the envisaged function of next of kin is not to seed adventure possibilities, but to handle transition of winnings to a new player position!

Does 1e even have ability check suggested like B/X does?
Not to the best of my knowledge (until the proficiencies in the DSG and WSG supplements). Though I suspect their use was fairly common, influenced by the Moldvay advice.
 

pemerton

Legend
I feel here we also hit the confound between the label and the implication. Say "skilled play" is a label without other implication - merely a tag for grouping some collection of commitments under? Then we could expect that play can be "skilled play" without being skilled. In this sense, I find the label somewhat obstructive to the discourse.
I've been taking it as given that "skilled play" is an agenda for play, an aspiration - so I can play a skilled play game without skill, in which case it will tend to suck (much like when I engage in ball sports!; and much like some of the people I used to trounce in five hundred when I hung out in the common area at university).

The fact that BW is fun even when played without a high degree of technical skill (I put myself forward here as exhibit A) is why I don't categorise it as a "skilled play" game, even though it is a game in which there is scope to manifest technical skill (mostly in the way PC advancement works).
 

pemerton

Legend
Thematically Skilled Play. Am I managing my play such that my Bonds will be resolved, my Alignment will be fulfilled, my End of Session Questions affirmed? The Fighter is considering the implications on unfolding character and attendant fallout just like a player of Dogs would when they consider escalating from "just talking" and/or bringing in complicating Traits/Relationships/Things that are apt to produce fallout.
I don't find it very helpful to label this "skilled play". I'm not 100% sure I can articulate why, but my tentative starting point would be because it's something that is better helped by being inclined towards literature rather than engineering.
 


The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
Really great post.

The only 2 caveats I would add are:

1) Calvinball GMing PBtA games is held in check explicitly by the reality that (a) the game explicitly forbids it through the accretion of agenda/principles, (b) the game fundamentally works when you don’t Calvinball, and (c) everything is table facing so Calvinballing doesn’t work (because it will stand out so much and the players will call you on it)!

2) Player Calvinballing in Blades is shut down because (a) the game works without it, (b) it expressly undermines the competitive integrity of play (Agenda and Best Practices), and (c) Don’t Be a Weasel p 183.
My view is those things are indeed how the game attempts to do so, but the degree to which they are succesful depend heavily on how easily players can keep them in mind, how much players care for obeying them while, and of course for the table to reach consensus-- after all disagreements concerning appropriate solutions to problems can heavily mitigate SP.

Im reminded of one player who was very irate the GM ruled they couldnt use... was it ray of frost? To run across a pit of acid. Because in their mind any DND fantasy story should feature broad recontextualization of powers that grandfather in all kinds of atonal capability. Anything that happened to influence them lately, was fair game and they werent acting in bad faith, just aggressively tone deaf about milieu.

Consensus and self policing is a higher bar than how these other systems privilege the GM with the executive power to tell you to get bent if you are, in defiance of the agendas, being a weasel.

But in the end both do come down to social conflict, its possible for the GM to stand up and walk away, in BITD if they realize the players in question can't be trusted not to be weasels regardless of who the vook says has "the final say." The players have the same power in a traditional DND game.
 

pemerton

Legend
Like @Manbearcat, I am startled by your input here (same goes for @AbdulAlhazred; we so very often seem to come down on the same side on these issues). On the one hand, you seem to be agreeing with the argument of disambiguating GSP from a broader, context-dependent umbrella of Skilled Play. (Maybe I'm misreading you here?) Yet your posts here and subsequently seem to make SP hinge entirely upon Win Conditions that don't easily translate between systems.

<snip>

managing potential consequences towards desired fictional outcomes in a system that requires the GM to honor player success (as one example) certainly seems to fall within a larger umbrella of skilled play to me!
Perhaps I'm focusing too much on myself as a single data point?

Here's the biographical context:

* By ordinary standards I'm not a bad game play. My five hundred and backgammon are near-impeccable, but both have a maximum limit of applicable skill because of the random element. My chess is, by any club standard (as opposed to walk-in-off-the-street standard) terrible; and my bridge not a lot better, though I could improve it more easily than my chess just by working on my card counting.

* When I play in boardgames with my RPG group, I am at the weaker end (the spreadsheet optimiser who is also my BW GM is the best) - this is not a walk-in-off-the-street group by any means (former group members have included two Australasian MtG champions) and so perhaps I'm setting the threshold for "skill" at the wrong level, but given where I've set it I consider myself a mediocre "skilled player.

* Part of what limits my skill in all these contexts is a lack of patience and a corresponding unwillingness to tolerate "boredom" - a lack of game action - in the interests of developing a position that will win down the track (one reason I prefer bridge to chess is that the former doesn't have such a strong contrast between "developing" moves and "crunchy" moves).

* The same thing would be my death in a serious playthrough of ToH, WPM etc.

* Yet I very much enjoy playing BW, and suspect I would enjoy extended play of DW, and in neither case would I anticipate the game grinding to a halt and my play experience basically sucking due to a lack of skill.​

Hence I think that, whatever label is appropriate to describe BW or DW play, "skilled play" isn't it.

A similar sort of thing - involving the spreadsheeter and the player who developed his PC to improve his relationship with a NPC - happened in our RM game. The spreadsheeter's technical optimisation clearly paid off in the context of winning fights. But when that campaign finished, and we narrated out the endgame situation, it was the other player who had better positioned his PC in the fiction, because the wooing of the PC gave him the grounds for proposing that they would found a dynasty, and this fed into the game's established theme/conflict of the "lone defender" who is driven mad by stress and isolation and hence can no longer defend; a dynasty permits renewal (another theme of the game) and hence overcomes that problem.

The previous paragraph is a bit abbreviated but I hope not too much: the idea is that in that RM game, as in my BW play, technical skill is not irrelevant but does not ultimately determine the orientation of the player (via the PC) towards theme and fiction. This is coming from other places - action declaration, the way particular thematic elements are introduced and built upon, etc.

This relates closely to my literature vs engineering contrast not far upthread.
 

pemerton

Legend
?!?

Are you making an argument that skill is gauged by its resemblance to science over art?
Something like that, yes. (See also my post just upthread.)

Now if progress in a RPG turned upon producing technically proficient verse, or painting, we'd be in a different - non-engineering - domain of skilled play! There are boardgames that are a bit more like this, too (eg Codenames), where I wouldn't expect my spreadsheet optimising friend to do as well as he typically does.

But I don't see the non-technical recognition or following of aesthetic/thematic imperatives as "skill" in the gameplaying sense.
 

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