At the time drow appeared in D&D, Michael Moorcock’s Elric novels were tremendously popular. A great many players at the time would have recognized Melniboneans in Gygax’s drow - decadent, sophisticated, depraved, cruel, utterly selfish, slave-owning, demon-worshippers. At conception, drow were basically a hybrid of norse mythology and Moorcok’s Melniboneans - themselves inspired by the elves in Poul Anderson’s the Broken Sword, which was itself rooted in Norse mythology.
D&D General Drow in early D&D
Well. I hope they don’t do it. But I see your point. It’s mainly ignorance that is the problem and trolls seeking to flame things up.
teitan
Legend
Tolkien refers to Hobbits as Halflings as well but yeah I use the same description!
Doug McCrae
Legend
I'm sure you're right about that. Origins of the Drow in Dungeons & Dragons gives a very thorough account and it puts a lot of emphasis on Moorcock's Melnibonéans (who were, ofc, a metaphor for the British Empire).
The article also mentions Thomas Keightley's Fairy Mythology, Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, L Sprague de Camp and Fletcher Pratt's The Roaring Trumpet, Edgar Rice Burroughs' Black Martians from The Gods of Mars, and the spider-people from Abraham Merritt's The Face in the Abyss as a source for driders.
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Snarf Zagyg
Notorious Liquefactionist
The best way to end fantasy racism, is to end fantasy races.
….I recommend starting with the elves.
I think it would be a horrible thing. But i see it happening.
Yaarel
He Mage
Heh. That sounds racist.
Well, here's the issue... despite the game calling them 'races'... elves and humans and dwarves are more like different species. So it's not really possible for an elf to be "racist" to humans, the same way we wouldn't classify our dealings with horses or apes or dogs or cats as "racist".
I'm pretty sure the elves see humans the same way we humans see other animals. We see them as intelligent, loving creatures, but we do not attribute to them the same sanctity and rights as we do humans, nor do most of us treat them as though they are on our level. Now, are we "racist" towards the rest of the animal kingdom if we think of them as one or more steps down on the evolutionary chain? I'm sure some people would say yes, but most of humanity would not. It's not a stretch to see the elves to humans connection the same way.
If I had to guess... the primary reason why we real humans see fantasy elves and fantasy humans as functionally equivalent is due to the fact that they can inter-breed. Now setting aside the fact that that idea is scientifically stupid... the fact that Tolkien allowed for it gave us real humans the idea that humans were on the same level as elves-- evolutionarily, if not societally. But I suspect that if we tried to actually get into the heads of these fantasy elves... the original intention of their design was that humans weren't equal. We were nothing more than puppies and kitties that elves thought were probably cute in their own way, but lived exceedingly short lives, and they treated us nicely because elves aren't inherently cruel and we were entertaining to have around. But we weren't elves, and it would have been ridiculous for any elf to treat us like we were.
In point of fact... this is exactly why I say that all D&D races are actually nothing more than "humans with rubber masks". Because we describe them by their comparison to humans, usually by highlighting one or two traits and attributing them to their entire species. Grey/High/Sun Elves are all "haughty" by human standards. But in truth... those elves should actually be so alien to us human beings that any attempt to describe them in that way would be as pointless as wondering "Hmm... I wonder how my cocker spaniel sees me?" We will never know how our dog sees us, we CAN'T know how they see us, and all we do is again, artificially assign it human traits. But they aren't real. The same way our description of elves are unreal and artificially assigned.
I'm pretty sure the elves see humans the same way we humans see other animals. We see them as intelligent, loving creatures, but we do not attribute to them the same sanctity and rights as we do humans, nor do most of us treat them as though they are on our level. Now, are we "racist" towards the rest of the animal kingdom if we think of them as one or more steps down on the evolutionary chain? I'm sure some people would say yes, but most of humanity would not. It's not a stretch to see the elves to humans connection the same way.
If I had to guess... the primary reason why we real humans see fantasy elves and fantasy humans as functionally equivalent is due to the fact that they can inter-breed. Now setting aside the fact that that idea is scientifically stupid... the fact that Tolkien allowed for it gave us real humans the idea that humans were on the same level as elves-- evolutionarily, if not societally. But I suspect that if we tried to actually get into the heads of these fantasy elves... the original intention of their design was that humans weren't equal. We were nothing more than puppies and kitties that elves thought were probably cute in their own way, but lived exceedingly short lives, and they treated us nicely because elves aren't inherently cruel and we were entertaining to have around. But we weren't elves, and it would have been ridiculous for any elf to treat us like we were.
In point of fact... this is exactly why I say that all D&D races are actually nothing more than "humans with rubber masks". Because we describe them by their comparison to humans, usually by highlighting one or two traits and attributing them to their entire species. Grey/High/Sun Elves are all "haughty" by human standards. But in truth... those elves should actually be so alien to us human beings that any attempt to describe them in that way would be as pointless as wondering "Hmm... I wonder how my cocker spaniel sees me?" We will never know how our dog sees us, we CAN'T know how they see us, and all we do is again, artificially assign it human traits. But they aren't real. The same way our description of elves are unreal and artificially assigned.
Urriak Uruk
Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Considering how humans seem to be able to procreate with elves, dwarves, ogres, orcs, devils, and probably more, I'm not sure we can truly consider them different species. If humans were able to have (intelligent, society functioning) children with dolphins, I highly doubt we would be ok having dolphins perform by force at SeaWorld.
wellis
Explorer
Honestly, I actually dislike this because I feel it is just the equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs, and then pretending the new rearrangement is magically better.
It reminds me of a Japanese term for replacing an old word that is now considered bad with a newer word. And then eventually the newer word is considered bad and replaced with another newer word. And so on.
Being "speciesist" isn't any better than being "racist." They're both nasty and prejudiced.
That's why I get so irritated when people complain about "race" for this and then think "species" is any better.
All that literally does is just slap a new coat of paint on the same broken wall you could say. It doesn't change anything.
