D&D 5E Is 5e's Success Actually Bad for Other Games?

[robus]

I want to try something else, 7th Sea, for example. But getting my head around the mechanics of action resolution in that game is hard. I’ve been listening to an excellent podcast (The Writer’s Room) that uses the system, but I still can’t say I understand it!

So that’s a big hurdle. There’s tons of excellent board game intro videos, but there are precious few watchable rpg intro videos. It would be a great service if a group of personable rpgers would make a series of 1-shots that demonstrated how the games run.

Not to pick on Morrus, but, for example, I wanted to watch the ACE intro video, but the production quality just made me give up after a few minutes.

So with Critical Role providing an incredibly polished platform for D&D it’s just going to get harder and harder for other RPGs to get traction IMHO.

 

[Shiroiken]

Not really. It's bad for D&D clones, since they fill the same niche as D&D. However, other RPGs aren't going to lose players to 5E, since they do other things better (and presumably that's what those players like). It will likely be good for them in the long run, as some new RPG players will eventually check out these other RPGs.

 

[billd91]

In the short term, potentially yes. Any hour spent playing D&D, every dollar spent on D&D products is not spent on another game. And that means any player switching from another game to D&D may be a lost (at least for now) player. And one of the cruel realities of business is that competing against the growing juggernaut means you may have limited time to make your mark in the market.

In the long term, no, a popular D&D grows the hobby. Some of the players who take it up will try something else even if the majority don’t.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I mean, the fact that this mentality even exists is exactly why D&D, at least in the short term, is bad for the rest of the industry. You don't really see this issue with board games, and neither in video games aside from the most dedicated Skyrim modders.

D&D tends to be peoples' first TTRPG due to its already existing brand size; it's the first TTRPG most people would come across by word of mouth or by Internet searching. But it doesn't stop there. The game has an extremely strong brand identity, it has its own media ecosystem, and it has a dedicated fandom that in its current state is largely divorced from the rest of the TTRPG hobby. D&D isn't so much a gateway game as it is a trap; new players who come into TTRPGs through D&D are at risk of getting stuck there and never expanding their horizons, because both D&D's passive market dominance and active marketing efforts cultivate the false idea that "D&D is all you need", ranging from simple apathy towards other games, to active - and sometimes even belligerent brand loyalty. The dragon game swallows up and hoards all the players and resources; and the rest of the market, even the Tier 2 studios, are left to fight over scraps.

Is 5E a trap, or does the rest of the market just not have enough quality bait to pull people over to their own trap?

If people think D&D is all they need... that's on the other companies to show them why their thinking is wrong.

 

[Campbell]

In my experience how successful D&D is basically irrelevant to recruiting players for the games I like to play. Prior experience with D&D does not really help (particularly modern iterations of the game) and may even sometimes be a hindrance. We do not really have a united hobby. What we are doing in my L5R, Vampire, or Apocalypse World games are so different from the way most people play D&D it's really a different hobby.

 

[Steampunkette]

Not even remotely. And mostly for the reasons listed above.

But players of 5e and D&D in general aren't "Only" going to branch out to other games because they get "Bored" of D&D or other systems are better at handling some things. They'll also branch out just out of curiosity. D&D has always been my staple game. Loved it since 2e. But I've also played Mutants and Masterminds, GURPS, Vampire the Masquerade and Werewolf the Apocalypse, 13th Age, Savage Worlds, Shadowrun, and Hackmaster at different times. I've taken stuff from various systems and kitbashed them together for different styles of games.

And for some stuff, like Superheroes, 5e just won't cut it without massive system revisions. People who love D&D and love the Marvel Cinematic Universe are going to want to play Superheroes in a Tabletop game eventually. And oh, look. A Marvel Multiverse RPG comes out for them to play.

It's how it is. How it's always been.

But. Asking strangers looking to play D&D to instead play a game they don't know in a setting they're not particularly interested in? Bad idea. If you want to introduce players to your preferred TTRPG then you need to be their friend. Someone they wanna spend time with and who is interested in something "New" to their experience to try.

It's a lot like relationships. You don't take a person you've only been on 1 date with meet your parents no matter how chill your parents are. You've gotta date 'em for a while before they're ready to make that move, in most cases. Now if you meet that special someone who wants to meet your parents after the first date and you're the kinda person who -wants- them to meet your parents after the first date: Hang onto them.

Because you're both probably serial killers and if you reject them you will wind up in a duffel bag in the woods.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Is 5E a trap, or does the rest of the market just not have enough quality bait to pull people over to their own trap?

If people think D&D is all they need... that's on the other companies to show them why their thinking is wrong.

Capitalistic markets don't work like that in practice. Once the market leader entrenches themselves and manages to establish themselves in the consumers' minds as the "default", or as a "prestige brand", then familiarity, over quality, becomes the primary determinant of success. Remember five years ago when everybody was going crazy over Beats by Dr. Dre? Even though those headphones were overpriced for their actual sound quality? Though Beats ended up being bought and cannibalized by Apple, and now it's all about Airpods.

I can say with utmost confidence in a vacuum, looking solely at the rules design, that Stars Without Number, Lancer, and Blades in the Dark are far better games than D&D. But Kevin Crawford, Massif Press, and Evil Hat all don't have the level of financial resources or the existing fan base for their brand that WotC has for D&D. In this market it takes money to make money, and right now WotC has the lion's share of the money.

 

[Steampunkette]

Capitalistic markets don't work like that in practice. Once the market leader entrenches themselves and manages to establish themselves in the consumers' minds as the "default", or as a "prestige brand", then familiarity, over quality, becomes the primary determinant of success. Remember five years ago when everybody was going crazy over Beats by Dr. Dre? Even though those headphones were overpriced for their actual sound quality? Though Beats ended up being bought and cannibalized by Apple, and now it's all about Airpods.

I can say with utmost confidence in a vacuum, looking solely at the rules design, that Stars Without Number, Lancer, and Blades in the Dark are far better games than D&D. But Kevin Crawford, Massif Press, and Evil Hat all don't have the level of financial resources or the existing fan base for their brand that WotC has for D&D. In this market it takes money to make money, and right now WotC has the lion's share of the money.

That's not really a fair comparison, though, since most people need headphones for some purpose or another. No one NEEDS TTRPGs.

D&D isn't just taking the lion's share of the current market, it's also expanding the current market. Substantially, if their numbers are to be believed. Which means more total number of players who will eventually look into other types of TTRPGs for various reasons.

It would be more akin to comparing D&D to Kentucky Fried Chicken opening up in Japan. It became THE Fried Chicken in Japan because they didn't really have a fried chicken market. It was a food that some Americans would make for themselves and their friends, but there really weren't Fried Chicken Restaurants.

And even though KFC is now synonymous with Fried Chicken in the entire nation, you can go to Soul Food House and get some Fried Chicken in several locations around Tokyo. Home

A Market that did not exist was created 40 years ago and is expanding to the point where other businesses that never existed can now exist. And have multiple locations.

Is it as popular as KFC? Hell no! KFC is -the- Christmas Dinner in Japan and if you want to have an order available for pickup on Christmas Eve you'd better make your reservation sometime in freaking JUNE and be willing to drive out of the city to one of the smaller country locations to get it.

But you can have Fried Chicken that ain't KFC.

 

[Malmuria]

I mean, the fact that this mentality even exists is exactly why D&D, at least in the short term, is bad for the rest of the industry. You don't really see this issue with board games, and neither in video games aside from the most dedicated Skyrim modders.

D&D tends to be peoples' first TTRPG due to its already existing brand size; it's the first TTRPG most people would come across by word of mouth or by Internet searching. But it doesn't stop there. The game has an extremely strong brand identity, it has its own media ecosystem, and it has a dedicated fandom that in its current state is largely divorced from the rest of the TTRPG hobby. D&D isn't so much a gateway game as it is a trap; new players who come into TTRPGs through D&D are at risk of getting stuck there and never expanding their horizons, because both D&D's passive market dominance and active marketing efforts cultivate the false idea that "D&D is all you need", ranging from simple apathy towards other games, to active - and sometimes even belligerent brand loyalty. The dragon game swallows up and hoards all the players and resources; and the rest of the market, even the Tier 2 studios, are left to fight over scraps.

Yes...the announcement of these new 5e books has made me realize how 5e specifically has made itself into a popular brand (on top of the "dungeons and dragons" brand). People really like the online 'community' including streaming, the art style, and the product ecosystem. They've created an environment where people speculate endlessly about their next releases. Even the complaining is a form of brand engagement. The rules do the basic job of not getting in the way of any of that.

That being said, there's always some fraction of people who get into dnd and find other games they like more (even if it's just the osr or pathfinder). But generally for people to try other games it's less about the rules and more about the overall aesthetic.

 

[Aldarc]

I suspect that people's answers and conclusion to this question will largely depend on their pre-existing attitudes towards 5e.

I would definitely be curious though about whether people echoing the "a rising tide lifts all ships" sentiment actually run non-5e games (and how regularly) or if it's just something self-reassuring that 5e people tell themselves. I don't know, and I don't have an opinion one way or another.

No, in fact I think it’s helped 4e. Especially recently.

I could see that. Matt Colville recently said in a Twitch stream that his experiences running 5e have made him realize that he prefers running 4e and that it had tighter, more modern game design. IME, there has definitely been a greater retrospective look at what 4e did right now that we collectively have some years on 5e.