D&D General Games Economies

Are you an economist with a minor in medieval studies or similar? It doesn't matter to me what you do in your game, but more granularity doesn't necessarily mean more accuracy. Especially when you start throwing in things like other species, magic and a hundred other things that D&D assumes is normal. I do attempt to look at the world the characters inhabit and have it make sense from the character's perspective I guess I just don't know what value details add to the game. I'd be curious what difference it makes for you and your table.
It makes a difference to me because I want the world to make sense. You can't do that if the setting exists solely as backdrop to PC action. That's a stage play, not a game set in a world that feels real. I want the world to feel as real as I can practically make it, and that means thinking about questions like how the economy works and trying to come up with answers. I believe that can be done to my satisfaction with some effort, and I'm willing to put it in.
 

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Where would even find adamantium prybars?
Any self respecting blacksmith can make one. You just need ore or extra adamantium weapon no one wants. We used to haul adamantium greataxe. Called it - universal door opener. One time, we used it to chop doors made of pure mithral into smaller chunks. When you have money as incentive, group i play gets creative in looting. They don't leave anything behind if it's even remotely valuable and can be sold. Hell, we even removed hardwood floors, stained glass windows and ornate doors from vampire's mansion, cause those can be sold for pretty penny.
 

When it comes to game economy, oWoD has most sense. You have your Resource background. Each dot represents mix of lifestyle and income. It also gives solid estimate of what things you can just buy, what you probably can buy if you save and get creative and what you outright can't buy. Then there is Wealth merit that is kind of safeguard, it means you have enough money safely invested and your Resources can't drop (without very good story reason).

D&D on the other hand, well, I stopped pretending it makes any sense long time ago. And, for some campaigns, i just hand waive it all together, especially if they start at tier 2. I just assume they have enough money for normal expenses. I removes money as a motive. Also, it stops players from taking anything not bolted down and selling it. I had players buy adamantium crowbars so they can pry remove adamantium bolts (which they also took) so they can take statues from palace.
That does greatly depend on the style of play. A lot of times, if the game is just a constant dungeon raid, I'd expect that sort of behavior to be common.

In other games, where characters can put the money to use - carousing, structures, henchmen/followers, titles, positions and whatnot - and it has some effect in the game, money gets actually used. It doesn't have to be a mechanical reward that directly helps in the next adventure; owning a house that can be safely retired to between adventures or donating money to the locals (and thus have friendlier reactions) to improve their town can be incentives for some players. Basically, if the characters can invest in the world around them and see some effect from doing so, I've seen they generally will involve themselves. Whether or not if follows a logical economic model or not isn't important.

Bringing Bastions back in with 2024 is one step in the right direction. The old Wizard's Tower, Thief's Guild, Fighter's Keep, Church and the like encouraged that sort of investment into the game world and the game was poorer when the only thing to spend gold on was more adventuring power (i.e., magic items). Heck, even setting up an Orphanage for the children ousted from the Caves of Chaos I've seen come up in a game (as well as buying the Haunted House outside Saltmarsh and renovating it, or buying a vessel to go pirating or merchant trading on the high seas...).

You don't have to have a full working economy in D&D to make money work. You just need something for characters to work towards buying/maintaining/expanding to give them a reason to spend that money - and it doesn't have to be splurging in some magic shop.
 

Are you an economist?
No
How can you be so sure a reasonable economic simulation is so impossible that we all just shouldn't bother in our own games?
Because I have spoken to economists. And it’s not that a reasonable economic simulation is impossible, it’s that what RPGs do is not simulate economies. You can’t really get around the fact that, in an RPG, value is arbitrary. There are no natural resources, no labor, no supply, and no demand. There are only goods, produced ex nhilo, and currency, also produced ex nhilo. You can set limits on the supply of those goods, and prices that make sense given the supply, and even create a system for introducing fluctuations to those supply limits and prices. But that’s not an economy. That’s just not what an economy is. It’s, at best, a convincing facsimile.
 

Any self respecting blacksmith can make one. You just need ore or extra adamantium weapon no one wants. We used to haul adamantium greataxe. Called it - universal door opener. One time, we used it to chop doors made of pure mithral into smaller chunks. When you have money as incentive, group i play gets creative in looting. They don't leave anything behind if it's even remotely valuable and can be sold. Hell, we even removed hardwood floors, stained glass windows and ornate doors from vampire's mansion, cause those can be sold for pretty penny.
Fair enough. I guess I'm surprised that adamantium is common enough in your setting that it easily be made and used for simple tools.
 


It makes a difference to me because I want the world to make sense. You can't do that if the setting exists solely as backdrop to PC action. That's a stage play, not a game set in a world that feels real. I want the world to feel as real as I can practically make it, and that means thinking about questions like how the economy works and trying to come up with answers. I believe that can be done to my satisfaction with some effort, and I'm willing to put it in.

Which is fine, I was just curious how it actually works. Do you use a supplement or house rules? If you don't have time to go into details that's fine ... I'm just always looking for new ideas even if they aren't worth it for my current campaign.
 

I think it's the same as any other rule that the DM wants to change. They can, but players have assumptions because the base prices are in the core book.
Regarding how much money there is, they can change that, but they're again disregarding the base rules (in this case, amount of treasure handed out in the DMG or adventure).

So if people think there's a better way, of course they're going to want the core rules to adopt it.. so it's in the book by default, without it having to be changed.

All that being said, I find that strongholds are an excellent gold-sink. Players are usually into it if they grant mechanical benefits (see A5E, or MCDM's Stronghold & Followers).
As I said, though, these rules don't really interact with other rules at all. And, I don't think I've ever had a player in 40+ years quote a price from the game rules. Could just be the dozens and dozens of people I've played with, though.
 

It makes a difference to me because I want the world to make sense. You can't do that if the setting exists solely as backdrop to PC action. That's a stage play, not a game set in a world that feels real. I want the world to feel as real as I can practically make it, and that means thinking about questions like how the economy works and trying to come up with answers. I believe that can be done to my satisfaction with some effort, and I'm willing to put it in.
Yeah, based on this, I think you’re probably misunderstanding what I mean when I say “RPGs don’t have economies.” Yes, you absolutely can think about how a fictional economy might work and set prices and award treasure in a way that makes sense based on how you imagine that economy to work. It’s just that doing so isn’t simulating an economy. It’s creating an illusion of one.
 

The problem at a fundamental level.... is Continual Flame.


Or put another way, the issue is less about the accumulation of coin than it is the accumulation of wealth. In actual medieval societies, the vast majority of things are degradable. The servants...die. Livestock....die. Your crops...die or are consumed. Most things produced require an incredible amount of effort just to maintain year to year and generation to generation.

So the wealth is in the permanent stuff, the land being the principal one (and the buildings on them). When you have land you have wealth, because the land is there generation after generation, the key to production. And land is limited, there is only so much of it, so it you have an innate supply and demand constraint. Everyone wants land, very few people get to have it, and those are the wealthy people for the most part.

Magic use in itself is just another form of labor....skilled labor to be sure...but labor nonetheless. Magic users have to be trained, they have a certain amount of productivity, most of them probably never amount to beyond 1-2nd level spells at most...and then eventually they die. Its an important and powerful resource....but still a limited one at an economy level. Now if magic is easy to learn...then schools and education programs can markedly increase that resource. But dnd suggests that spellcasting is just really hard to do, and it takes a certain person above and beyond the base intellect to really get the hang of it. So again, a limited resource.

But once you get into magic items...its a brand new ballgame, continual flame being the most basic example. Now we take a consumable labor resource and convert their time into generating a permanent magical benefit. That is not just a resource...that is WEALTH. That is a benefit that can be cultivated, stored, and built over time. A community starts with a handful of continual lights. Fast forward a generation....and the entire city is fully illuminated.

Permanent Magic items shatter the feudal economies that dnd would seem to simulate at first glance. Therefore, your first step to making an economy realistic....permanent magic items have to go. Either they are gone gone, or they require expensive recharging periodically, they fade to nothingness after X amount of time...etc.
Alright so the first hurdle I mentioned is above, lets go to the next step.

Lets assume that we have built a decent economic model for a small city. Prices are reasonable for what such a city needs to conduct its business. Now we insert a group of 5th-6th level adventurers. Not crazy high level, but certainly with access to a host of powerful items and potentially a lot of money. How does that impact the economy?

We can look at a few ideas:

1) Adventuring is a short-time lucrative gig. In this model, raiding a dungeon or taking out a dragon is quite lucrative....but the jobs are few and far between. One dungeon might set you up for a year compared to normal labor (for just a few days work), but you can't sustain yourself on that kind of work indefinitatey.

The problem with dnd adventures is many of them have a "and next....and next....and next" element to them. Downtime is limited, and so PCs are adventuring all the time. But if you adopt a model where adventuring is SUPER STRESSFUL and SUPER HARMFUL TO THE BODY....adventurers need breaks, lots of breaks. Its kind of like the modern day oil rig worker, who will often make a high end year salary with a 6 month rotation....but they aren't stinking rich. And people aren't going to hire them for another rotation immediately afterwards, you want rig workers that have time in between.

This model would have limited shock to an economy. Yeah adventurers get a massive payout, but that needs to last for a year, maybe more. So its not that much different than a skilled laborer who works hard all year for their money, but still makes roughly what an adventurer might make.


2) Adventuring doesn't generate much spendable money. Another idea is that the vast majority of things adventurers find in a dungeon or a hoard isn't that spendable. Art is one example, even high end jewels would be difficult to find a buyer for...you would likely need to go to the large cities for that kind of exchange.

Magic items....there is no magic item market, your not selling your items for coin unless the item would have high utility to a nobleman.

So this model requires a change in thinking for a DM, really shifting their treasures towards interesting (but not lucrative) items and curiosities rather than just raw bling.

That said, this model does kick the can a bit. Yes again this is unlikely to effect our small city economy we noted above (those places just don't have the kind of people that deal in art and jewels and the like so the PCs can't insert a bunch of money). But if we get a big city well than now we are back to PCs getting the ability to generate lots of gold quickly.


3) Your money isn't good here (aka the noble controlled society). One element of feudalistic societies that we have forgotten about in our modern economy. We hold to the tenent that "everyone's money is green", aka if you got the money I will sell the thing. But in feudalistic societies, the nobles have the wealth and money...and people would look with extreme suspicion upon non-noble people flinging around big cash. If a peasant tried to buy something with gold, the shopkeeper is likely to call the constable...as clearly they are a thief.

Most of the high end dealers work directly or are a part of teh nobles retinue. If an adventurer tries to buy or exchange something...they might feel inclined to report it to their lord first. And so if the PCs want to buy or exchange the cool stuff, they might need to roleplay in a few meetings at first, and everything is tilted in the lord's favor. No giving the peasants a ton of gold, etc.

This lets the PCs spend the big cash but in a controlled way, through an "overseer", and prevents the notions of paying a commoner 10 gp to pick up the dry cleaning that could "wreck economies".

alright that's a long enough posts, in the next one we can talk about disruptive magics to an economy
 

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