D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[Flamestrike]

Cue: Oh but Feats and Tashas are optional!

And around and around and around we go/

 

[Minigiant]

Also, I've posted a thread to test any kind of 'martial/ caster' imbalance on here.

15th level play.

If any of you still think this 'imbalance' exists, now is your chance to prove it to me in there.

Is it less that the imbalance exists and more that

1. The balance is mostly designed for the dungeon adventuring day only.
2. Within the Combat pillar, the martials and spellcasters are often at opposite ends. The Martials are clearly the best Strikers and Defenders. but are clearly weak at th support and control spellcasters have.
3. The martials are designed to be simple. The spellcasters are allowed to be complex and the simplex they get are warlocks.
4. WOTC can't help vomitting out new spells and this increases spellcaster strength in Exploration and Social pillars every few months.
5. There's practically no guidance for DMs to change 2, 3, & 4 and the only guidance for 1 is to drag the day over multiple days.

 

[Minigiant]

Cue: Oh but Feats and Tashas are optional!

And around and around and around we go/

It's less feats being optional and more that all but 2 "races" can't take a feat until level 4. And getting your primary score to 18 or 20 is morevital to your character's strength and the assumptions of the game. Especially if your party is not big and can afford heavy diviation of core power.

 

[Asisreo]

Fighters can do all the above as well just using their class features. In addition to the two bonus feats (over that of Barbarians) they get allowing them to take 'Skilled' and Skill Expert', they can take a Fighting style that gives them a d6 superiority dice to use on Charisma checks or Int and Wisdom checks (refreshing on a short rest, with that dice being

They can't do all of the above because the above is unique to barbarians. There's nothing a fighter can do to imitate a barbarian's Indomitable Might, nor can they imitate Primal Champion.

They can't enforce frightened without an attack roll and they can't cast Commune with Nature.

They can acquire feats, but none of them let them do what barbarians can do. And that's okay, because they work on different fictions.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

MINIGIANT'S SOLUTION:

Make a new warrior class that has more out of combat power than fighters but is weaker at combat than fighters.

If only there were an extremely popular, widely-known class that could fill such a role. Perhaps, say, a class which was specifically associated with supportive abilities and skills, while still having some combat capability. But surely no such class has ever existed in any real edition of D&D, it exists only in the dreams of martial fans.... </sarcasm>

(Sorry for being a bit late to the party on this, because holy crap you guys put out like 8-9 pages of posts in less than 12 hours, but I suppose that's par for the course with game balance and caster/martial disparity threads...)

More seriously though, whether you intended it or not, it sounds an awful lot like saying "man wouldn't it be cool if there was a Warlord/Captain/Banneret-as-its-own-class/etc.?"

 

[Flamestrike]

It's less feats being optional and more that all but 2 "races" can't take a feat until level 4.

Seeing as levels 2-4 speed through in a session or two, and no-one can really do much crazy stuff at lower levels, it's not an issue is it?

 

[Minigiant]

Seeing as levels 2-4 speed through in a session or two, and no-one can really do much crazy stuff at lower levels, it's not an issue is it?

It is.

Like I keep saying,most players don't take feats until hig levels until high levels because most feats are weaker that +2 to your class primary ability score.
This is why WOTC keeps saying many players do not use feats in campaigns. Because campaigns start end before or around the time when players take feats.

 

[Flamestrike]

Human BM Fighter 12.

6 feats. +2 Str, +2 Str, GWM, Prodigy, Skilled, Skill Expert (+1 Con).

10 skills (2 with expertise). Athletics (+13), Persuasion (+10), Insight (+5), Perception (+5), History (+5), Survival (+5), Intimidate (+6), Stealth (+3), Investigation (+5), Perform (+6).

6 Sup dice (d10s) coming back on a short rest. Can add a d10 to any Investigation, Insight, History, Persuasion, Intimidate or Perform check he makes.

Did I mention he's a GWM Str 20 Battlemaster (Precise strike, Menacing attack, Pushing attack) as well?

+15 to Persuasion. +10 to Insight. +11 to Intimidate. +10 to Investigation. +10 to History. +11 to Perform.

How is he not functioning well in the exploration or social pillars (while also dominating the Fighting pillar)?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Seeing as levels 2-4 speed through in a session or two, and no-one can really do much crazy stuff at lower levels, it's not an issue is it?

Man, I hear people talk about this a LOT.

I've literally never seen it. Every non-PBP game I've played, even getting from level 1 to level 2 takes 2-3 sessions minimum. It's one of the reasons I almost always ask to skip the first few levels, because they never take as little time as advertised. Edit: Also, what Minigiant said. Level 12 is a big ask.

And...I honestly think it's distinctly inappropriate to build a comparison on Variant Human (the only pre-Tasha option that gets any feats), to say nothing of a 12th-level Fighter (which is not going to happen at most tables, per WotC's own data).

Consider a Dragonborn at level 8 (aka near-retirement, per WotC's data, if they haven't already retired), where they have all of 1 feat (perhaps 2, if one of them is a half-feat boosting Str), and can't get half those goodies because humans are (as always) showered with the best skill-and-versatility benefits while leaving other races high and dry.

 

[Minigiant]

Human BM Fighter 12.

6 feats. +2 Str, +2 Str, GWM, Prodigy, Skilled, Skill Expert (+1 Con).

10 skills (2 with expertise). Athletics (+13), Persuasion (+10), Insight (+5), Perception (+5), History (+5), Survival (+5), Intimidate (+6), Stealth (+3), Investigation (+5), Perform (+6).

6 Sup dice (d10s) coming back on a short rest. Can add a d10 to any Investigation, Insight, History, Persuasion, Intimidate or Perform check he makes.

Did I mention he's a GWM Str 20 Battlemaster (Precise strike, Menacing attack, Pushing attack) as well?

+15 to Persuasion. +10 to Insight. +11 to Intimidate. +10 to Investigation. +10 to History. +11 to Perform.

How is he not functioning well in the exploration or social pillars (while also dominating the Fighting pillar)?

he's 12th level and the campaign ended or collapsed at level 9.